by Albert Einstein 118 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Also Reniaa, please ignore this Have you really examined closely my post after little over one minute?!
I realise you were likely typing your post at the time I assumed you should have been reading mine!
My sincere apologies.
Anyhow, examine carefully the scripture and reasoning I have presented please :)
All the best,
Stephen
you are taking scripture out of context chalam and dividing death up to support your viewpoint.
1 So I reflected on all this and concluded that the righteous and the wise and what they do are in God's hands, but no man knows whether love or hate awaits him. 2 All share a common destiny—the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad, [ a ] the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not.
As it is with the good man,
so with the sinner;
as it is with those who take oaths,
so with those who are afraid to take them.
3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. 4 Anyone who is among the living has hope [ b ] —even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!
5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.
7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do. 8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. 9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun— all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, [ c ] where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
11 I have seen something else under the sun:
The race is not to the swift
or the battle to the strong,
nor does food come to the wise
or wealth to the brilliant
or favor to the learned;
but time and chance happen to them all.
12 Moreover, no man knows when his hour will come:
As fish are caught in a cruel net,
or birds are taken in a snare,
so men are trapped by evil times
that fall unexpectedly upon them.
this whole chapter is talking about how we are heading to grave and in death there is no knowledge etc so we must do what we can while we are under the sun as apposed to being dead and in the grave aka not under the sun but in the grave.
Can't you just use their own KIT (I think the green one, the first one?) and try to get a jw to actually read their own literature? The KIT shows many of the unscholarly and ungodly changes they have made to the Word.
this whole chapter is talking about how we are heading to grave and in death there is no knowledge etc so we must do what we can while we are under the sun as apposed to being dead and in the grave aka not under the sun but in the grave.
I agree, it is all about death. However, it is not that the "dead are conscious of nothing" at all as the WT teaches but "under the sun" as the bible states. Let us move on from this verse, which is the one the WT hangs pretty much all of their teaching on against multitudes of other verses.
Let us examine these for example...
21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.
Is it really better to die as Paul says and be "conscious of nothing" as the WT teaches? How is he going to be conscious that he is with Christ?!
All the best,
Stephen
chalam it says they are conscience of nothing and then says ...
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.
which pretty much says they are not under the sun when they are conscience of nothing they are dead and in the grave. it is quite clear the association of the scripture between being dead in grave and being alive and under the sun. Your twisting it to your own viewpoint.
now you jump to annointed christians who have the hope of life and resurrection because of Jesus's death. your mixing the 2 up and making 5.
the difference isn't that there are two types of death but that before Jesus there was no hope of resurrection he bought by his ransom sacrifice.
Matthew 20:28
just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
Let us move on from this verse, which is the one the WT hangs pretty much all of their teaching on against multitudes of other verses.
Let us examine these for example...
21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.
Is it really better to die as Paul says and be "conscious of nothing" as the WT teaches? How is he going to be conscious that he is with Christ?!
All the best,
Stephen
reniaa
just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." Matt 20:28
"The Life that Jesus sacrificed was an exact equivalent of the life that Adam forfeited when he sinned. What was the result of Jesus’ death? Jehovah accepted that sacrifice as “a corresponding ransom for all.” (1 Timothy 2:6)"
– The Watchtower , 1 March 2008, p.6.
First, simply checking the ‘persons’; the life of Jesus could never be just an equivalent because, according to the Watchtower, Jesus is the only created being of Jehovah, and, again, according to the Watchtower, Jesus would have created Adam. By very definition that makes Jesus greater than Adam and not equivalent to. More than that, we need to look at the Greek for the Scripture they quote. Where in the Greek is there a word for ‘corresponding;’ answer– nowhere!
The Greek word is “ antilutron” and this is the only time it appears in the New Testament. It means that He gave His life for the life of another. Greek scholars all appear to agree that the meaning of the Greek word for “ransom” simply involves the idea of ‘substitution’ and not a strict ‘no more/no less’ rule.
Please note the word all. This again gives the lie to the word corresponding – Adam one man, sinned and then all those born after him inherited that sin. Jesus, one man, died and took all the sin of those who lived before Him in time and those that lived after Him in time – this work is far greater than what Adam did and it cannot just be brought down to a corresponding ransom – it had to undo not just the original sin but the power that sin has over people. Romans5:14-15 shows this fact clearly,
“much more did the grace...”
The work of Jesus on the cross was for me and I need to personally accept and experience that, not go through an organisation that teaches that Jesus was simply a man that corresponded to Adam. What that ignores is the fact that after Adam all ‘men’ were born in sin and so, if Jesus was just a man, he would have original sin. Only because Jesus was born by the Holy Spirit as God is He able to be the
perfect sacrifice and ransom for all.
The jwinfoline.com website puts it this way:
“Romans chapter 5 clearly shows us that the idea that Jesus' sacrifice perfectly balances Adam's sin is not correct. There is no perfect balance. Jesus' sacrifice far outweighs Adam's sin. "How can that be?" one may ask,
"Doesn't the price have to equal what is purchased?" Not at all! Let's look at an example. Let's says that your beloved family puppy is dog-napped. The captors demand $10,000 in exchange for the puppy. The puppy is not worth $10,000 but you decide to pay the $10,000 ransom price because you really love your puppy and want him back. Your sacrifice of $10,000 is far greater than the value of the animal, yet because of your great love for your puppy, you pay the ransom.
The price you paid tips the scale when measured by the value of what was bought. It doesn't have to be equal. In the same way, God's love for us far outweighs our value. The sacrifice of His precious Son was a price that the Father was willing to pay not because we are worth it, or because our value equals the value of His Son's life, but because He loves us greatly and is willing to give His best in order to redeem us back into his family.”
hi chalam it isn't just that scripture but a few check this one out.
25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
This clearly shows that they are still in the grave awaiting judgement not running around already judged and in heaven.
hi gordy not sure the point you are trying to make the bible says no human could provide the ransom.
Psalm 49:7
No man can redeem the life of another or give to God a ransom for him-
so we needed a perfect man
18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
jesus was that sacrifice to that end he emptied himself and became a perfect human.
7 but [ a ] ( A ) emptied Himself, taking the form of a ( B ) bond-servant, and ( C ) being made in the likeness of men.
hi chalam it isn't just that scripture but a few check this one out.
25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
This clearly shows that they are still in the grave awaiting judgement not running around already judged and in heaven.
Hello Reniaa,
No, that is your interpretation. Yes, judgement day is coming as the verse says but the verses you quote do not prove your conclusion at all (This clearly shows that they are still in the grave awaiting judgement not running around already judged and in heaven), only speak of that day.
Consider also this passage
18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
Yes, those who died in the flood, their bodies are in the "grave" and their spirits are in prison, what would common be called Hell or the first death.
Now how can Christ preach the gospel to them if they, as dead people were "concious of nothing" as the WT teaches?
Look forward to you answers.
Don't forget to answer this one also please.
Is it really better to die as Paul says and be "conscious of nothing" as the WT teaches? How is he going to be conscious that he is with Christ?
All the best,
Stephen
