Clarifying the Trinity Doctrine

by UnDisfellowshipped 123 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Besty said:

  "this topic is a waste of resources. why not discuss somethign relevant?"

  What is more relevant to discuss than our Creator?

  If the evidence points to there being a timeless, spaceless Intelligence which caused the Big Bang, and provides us with the explanation for our ability to have rational inference (to logically think and come to conclusions from the premises), and provides us all with built-in moral laws, wouldn't you say that this is relevant to discuss?

  And, what if the evidence points in the direction that a Man named Yeshua (or Jesus), who lived 2000 years ago, who claimed to be this Intelligence, rising from the dead in fulfillment of His predictions?

  In other words, you don't think it's relevant to discuss whether or not the Very Cause of the Big Bang came to earth in a flesh and blood body?
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  LeavingWT said:

  "People have been arguing about this since at least 325 CE. I think we'll settle it here, today, on the Interwebs. At long last. Finally."

  LOL!

  But, seriously, why couldn't we settle this here, today, at least among ourselves? I mean, there's only so many relevant passages of Scripture to examine before coming to your conclusion.

  Just because there have been some people who argue over this doctrine for 2000 years, that doesn't say anything about us today.

  We are not any less intelligent than those in the past.
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Sir82 said:

  "OK here's what I don't get. Based on statement 1, "The Father" = Jehovah and "The Son" = Jehovah. But Statement 2 says A = C but A <> B. In mathematics, if A = C and B = C, then A = B. What am I missing?"

  As Narkissos correctly pointed out, the Trinity Doctrine says there is One "What" and Three "Who's". There are Three Persons (or "Minds," perhaps) who each share the same Being, Nature, or Essence.

  Satanus said:

  "Why stop at god as 3 persons;)"

  Frankly, because that's where the Bible stops. The Bible says The Father is God, The Son is God, and The Spirit is God. It never teaches that anyone else is true God by Nature.

  The Bible says there are many other so-called gods, and false gods, but never another true God. (read Isaiah chapters 40-50)

  mraimondi said:

  "the trinity doctrine is a ridiculous attempt to infuse paganism into "christianity" and it worked. just because the fuckin JW cult got it right (after many other people did the legwork for them) doesnt mean the trinity is ok now."

  I agree that we should not accept the Trinity just because the JW's rejected it. That is not a good way to decide what to believe.

  However, what evidence can you present to demonstrate that the Trinity Doctrine was infused into Christianity from the Pagans?

  There were Pagan Monotheists and Pagans were had more than three gods also. The Pagan religions that did have three gods were tritheists, they worshiped triads, not Three Persons as One God.
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Possible said:

  "And "Jehovah" is the name of "the Father" although it is the point which many Trinitarians misunderstand. It is not the common name of "the Father", "the Son", and "the Holy Spirit." [...] In the orthodox Trinity doctrine, the divine name "Jehovah" expresses "the Father." "

  Where does the Bible teach that only The Father has the Name YHWH?

  When The Angel of YHWH spoke to Moses in the burning bush, He declared that His Everlasting Name was I AM, YHWH. Jesus declared that He was I AM (John 8:58, 8:24).

  Who was this Angel? And if Jesus is I AM, then He is YHWH as well.

  I agree with you and Narkissos that it is probably less confusing to refer to Jesus as LORD (Kyrios), especially when talking to JW's.

  But, keep in mind that in the Septuagint, The Divine Name YHWH is rendered as "LORD" (Kyrios) 6,000+ times, and the most important confession of faith in the New Testament is that Jesus is LORD (Kyrios).
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  leavingwt

  We are not any less intelligent than those in the past.

  My own limited experience has taught me that intelligence often has little to do with it. It is my opinion that all Christian faiths are built upon a unique interpretation of Scripture.

  Most self-described Christians fit somewhere into the chart below. They usually quote Scripture, explain tradition or relate personal revelations to support their views. I'm OK with with different opinions.

  
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  yknot said:

  "What was the point of the temptation of Jesus? If he had chosen to bow down to Satan what would have happened to this triune equation? If he wasn't able to fail, again what was the point of the event?"

  This is one of toughest questions to ask about Jesus.

  The way I see it, there are two possibilities here:

  Possibility # 1:

  * Jesus could nothave sinned, because then God's prophecies would have failed, God would have been a liar and a false prophet. (The Bible says it is impossible for God to lie and impossible for Him to sin).

  * But Jesus did fully experience all of the temptations that we humans experience, except that He did not have the same sinful nature we have, and He never gave in to the temptations. He never sinned. (The Book of Hebrews teaches that Jesus had to be tempted so that He could identify with us, and be a sympathetic High Priest over us)

  * From His human viewpoint, Jesus may have felt or believed that He could sin or fail in His mission (for example, in the Garden of Gethsemane, He thought He might die early before the Cross).

  Possibility # 2:

  * Jesus could have sinned, as a Man, but God foreknew the free choices that Jesus would make; therefore God knew that Jesus would not sin or fail.

  Either way, God knew that Jesus would not sin and would not fail. So, God's purpose and His prophecies were never in jeopardy.

  (Some more Scriptural points on this topic are below:)

  * The Bible says God cannot be tempted by His own evil desires, because God has no evil desires.

  * The Bible says Jesus never had evil sinful thoughts, and He never committed any sin.

  * Jesus did say that He could have had angels save Him from His death, but then that would have cancelled God's prophecies.

  * Jesus said, unlike normal humans who can choose to disobey God, that He CANNOT do anything except what The Father wants Him to do.

  * The Bible says that God had predestined or foreordained that Jesus was successfully die as a sinless sacrifice for our sins.
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Aligot said:

  "Well, well, the first thing that appealed to me when I started talking with JWs was their simple approach to God's nature, because, although a catholic, I had never managed to believe this complex trinity thing, which just looked like an unnecessary intellectual exercise, unwothy of a god who wants to let himself known by the humblest persons. I 'm leaving the JWs now, for reasons which are common to many of us, but I think I will stick to their notion of God, more within my intellectual grasp."

  I can appreciate that. I like simple answers too, as long as they are truthful simple answers.

  But we are talking about the One Being that existed before time and space and matter (before the Universe and the Big Bang), who is Spirit.

  We can't even really describe what "Spirit" is. All we have experienced in life is in the physical Universe.

  I just want to humbly suggest and recommend that you please examine what the New Testament writers say about Jesus Christ, and who they believed Him to be.

  * The Apostle Thomas declared that Jesus is God, and Jesus said that those who believe the same thing are blessed (John 20:28-29).

  * The Apostle John wrote that Jesus has the same Divine Nature as God (John 1:1).

  * The Apostle Paul wrote that all of the fullness of the Nature of God dwells in Jesus (Colossians 2:9)

  * The writer of Hebrews says Jesus is God (Hebrews 1:8) who should be worshiped (Hebrews 1:6).

  * Jesus always accepted worship, even though angels refused worship. (Revelation chapter 5; Revelation 19:10)

  * The Apostle Paul wrote that Jesus has always existed in Nature or Form of God. (Philippians 2:6)

  * Titus 2:13, 2nd Peter 1:1, and Romans 9:5 all say that Jesus is God.
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  yknot

  While I appreciate the scriptures cited......I don't see conclusive proof.

  Ultimately we are given snippets here and there in the Bible that either side can use as 'proof'. Why does this have to be such a dividig issue?

  I don't see anything that says we all have to agree on the concept nature within the heavenly family to embrace salvation. The requirements were quite simply to believe and exercise faith in Jesus Christ and if possible lead lives that followed the lamb...(for those not in slavery of sorts)

  Can't there be unity in the agreement that Jesus was the Christ......
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  yknot, Hi, how are you? I'm glad you're posting here. I like to have good Bible-related, God-related discussions whenever I can.

  You said:

  "While I appreciate the scriptures cited......I don't see conclusive proof. Ultimately we are given snippets here and there in the Bible that either side can use as 'proof'. Why does this have to be such a dividig issue?"

  That is why learning proper exegesis is so important, and always reading the verses in context.

  I don't want to divide anyone from Christ -- I only desire that people know the truth about Christ.

  You said:

  "I don't see anything that says we all have to agree on the concept nature within the heavenly family to embrace salvation. The requirements were quite simply to believe and exercise faith in Jesus Christ and if possible lead lives that followed the lamb...(for those not in slavery of sorts) Can't there be unity in the agreement that Jesus was the Christ......"

  You are correct -- the Bible does not say we all have to agree on our understanding of the nature and relationships within the Godhead to be saved.

  But, the Bible does say that we must know the true identity of Jesus and trust in Him alone for salvation (see John 8:24). And we are saved only by trusting in Him and what He has done for us (His perfect Sacrifice and Resurrection in our place for our sins)
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  The Watchtower's brochure entitled "Should You Believe in the Trinity?" makes the following claims:

  "Summing up the historical evidence, Alvan Lamson says in The Church of the First Three Centuries: “The modern popular doctrine of the Trinity . . . derives no support from the language of Justin [Martyr]: and this observation may be extended to all the ante-Nicene Fathers; that is, to all Christian writers for three centuries after the birth of Christ."

  [...] "However, this is no proof in itself that Tertullian taught the Trinity. The Catholic work Trinitas—A Theological Encyclopedia of the Holy Trinity, for example, notes that some of Tertullian’s words were later used by others to describe the Trinity. Then it cautions: “But hasty conclusions cannot be drawn from usage, for he does not apply the words to Trinitarian theology.” "

  The Watchtower issue of August 1, 1992, Page 19 said this:

  "the Trinity doctrine was not taught by Jesus and his disciples nor by the early Church Fathers. "

  The Watchtower issue of October 15, 1978, Page 32 said this:

  "in the time of Justin [c. 100-165 C.E.], and long after, the distinct nature and inferiority of the Son were universally taught; and that only the first shadowy outline of the Trinity had then become visible.”—The Church of the First Three Centuries, p. 34."

  The Watchtower issue of August 15, 1956, Page 504, said this:

  "there can be no doubt about the fact that none of these [early church fathers] believed in a trinity in which ‘God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are coequal, cosubstantial and coeternal.’"

  Are those claims true? Is it true that NONE of the church fathers for the first 300 years after Jesus' death taught The Trinity? Is it true that Tertullian did not teach "Trinitarian theology"? What are the actual facts? What did the Early Church Fathers actually say about God and Jesus? Well, let's find out right here, right now:

  What the Early Church Fathers taught about God and Jesus:

  Ignatius said (circa 105 C.E.):

  "God Himself was manifested in human form [...] Continue in intimate union with Jesus Christ our God. [...] I pray for your happiness forever in our God, Jesus Christ. [...] Jesus Christ was with the Father before the ages."

  Justin Martyr said (circa 160 C.E.):

  "We reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place. [...] The Word ... is Divine. [...] The First-Begotten Word of God, is even God. [...] Next to God, we worship and love the Word [...] He deserves to be worshipped as God and as Christ. [...] Christ, as God, strong and to be worshipped. [...] The Son ministered to the will of the Father. Yet, nevertheless, He is God, in that He is the First-Begotten of all creatures. [...] If you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the Only, Unbegotten, Unutterable God. [...] This is He who existed before all, who is eternal Priest of God, and King, and Christ. [...] This Offspring was begotten by the Father before all things created. [...] The Word of Wisdom ... is Himself this God, begotten of the Father. The Son is also God and the Angel."

  Melito said (circa 170 C.E.):

  "God was put to death, the King of Israel slain! [...] He is Creator together with the Father. [...] He is God who is from God. He is the Son who is from the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the King for evermore. [...] We are worshippers of His Christ, who is truly God the Word, existing before all time. [...] Being at once both perfect God and perfect man, He gave us sure indications of His two natures ... He concealed the signs of His Deity, although He was the true God existing before all ages."

  Tertullian said (around 200 C.E.):

  "We pray at a minimum not less than three times in the day. For we are debtors to Three: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. [...] The Trinity of the One Divinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. [...] I testify that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are inseparable from each other. ... My assertion is that the Father is one, the Son is one, and the Spirit is one--and that they are all distinct from each other."