Hi Reniaa,
Thank you for your post.
You said:
"so Jesus is fully God in man form? how then can he die when God cannot die?"
We believe that a Person who had always existed in the Nature or Essence of God (John 1:1, Colossians 2:9) then "became flesh" (John 1:14) and "emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake."
When The Logos "became flesh," He did not cease to have His Nature of God, for all of the fullness of Nature of God dwells permanently in Him bodily. (Colossians 2:9)
So, He was One Person with two natures (He had His Nature of God that He has always had, and then He has the Nature of Mankind, which He added to His God-Nature).
It was only His Human Nature which died on the stake [or Cross, I'm not that picky on this point].
You said:
"this is an old old argument but one that gets down to the nitty gritty of the problem with trinity. When the bible conflicts with trinity doctrine then the trinity doctrine is given the credit of truth and the bible fitted around it."
That should NEVER be the case. If I truly believed the Bible did not teach the Tri-Unity of God, I would not believe it.
I came to my belief in the Tri-Unity of God after months of personal study in the Bible (I didn't understand it all, and still don't, and probably never will fully). It wasn't an easy thing for me to believe, because I had been taught for all 19 years of my life that only The Father is God Almighty, and that Jesus was a lesser, inferior creature who should not be worshiped or prayed to, and that the Trinity Doctrine was a Satanic, Pagan teaching, and that unrepentant Trinitarians will be doomed to Gehenna at Armageddon.
So, I did not make that decision lightly.
You said:
"To be honest My main issue with trinity is the doctrine itself has no scriptural support not in one place does it express the concept of 3 in one in relation to God and it never describes Jesus as 'God the son' although it does say 'God the Father'. Don't you think if it said one it would say the other if it was true?"
According to the best way of translating Hebrews 1:8 (from what I have read and researched), God the Father calls His Son God:
Hebrews 1:8 (NIV): But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:3 describes The Son as the Out-Raying or Shining-Forth of The Father's own glory, as well as the Exact Expression or Imprint of The Father's own Nature.
Then Hebrews 1:6 says that all angels must worship The Firstborn. And yes, it should be "worship" here, not obeisance, because it is a quote from an Old Testament verse which speaks about the angels worshiping Jehovah. The New World Translation even had "worship" in Hebrews 1:6 up until the 1970's. Then they changed it to "obeisance." Why did they do that?
In fact, the Watchtower Society even published "Questions From Readers" in which they DEFENDED their use of the word "worship" in Hebrews 1:6:
And, are you aware that the Watchtower Society taught for many years that the glorified Christ must be worshiped? (Even as late as 1992):
The Watchtower, January 15th, 1992, Page 23:
"So any “worship” the angels give God’s Son is relative and is directed through him to Jehovah."-------------------
The Watchtower, February 15th, 1983, Pages 16-21:
"It may also signify “worship,” which is how some Bibles read at Hebrews 1:6. If that is the correct sense here, it evidently means a relative worship, a worship of Jehovah God directed through his glorified Son.—Compare Revelation 14:7; The Watchtower of November 15, 1970, pages 702-704."
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The Watchtower, November 15th, 1970, Pages 702-704:
"Bowing down to humans as an act of respect was admissible, but bowing to anyone other than Jehovah as a deity was prohibited by God. (Ex. 23:24; 34:14) [...] As with the Hebrew term, the context must be considered to determine whether pro·sky·ne?o refers to obeisance solely in the form of deep respect or obeisance in the form of religious worship. Where reference is directly to God (John 4:20-24; 1 Cor. 14:25) or to false gods and their idols (Acts 7:43; Rev. 9:20), it is evident that the obeisance goes beyond that acceptably or customarily rendered to men and enters the field of worship. [...] If the rendering “worship” is preferred, then it must be understood that such “worship” is only of a relative kind. For Jesus himself emphatically stated to Satan that “it is Jehovah your God you must worship [form of pro·sky·neo], and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.” (Matt. 4:8-10; Luke 4:7, 8) True, Psalm 97, which the apostle evidently quotes at Hebrews 1:6, refers to Jehovah God as the object of the ‘bowing down,’ and still this text was applied to Christ Jesus. (Ps. 97:1, 7) However, the apostle previously had shown that the resurrected Christ became the “reflection of [God’s] glory and the exact representation of his very being.” (Heb. 1:1-3) Hence, if what we understand as “worship” is apparently directed to the Son by angels, it is in reality being directed through him to Jehovah God, the Sovereign Ruler, “the One who made the heaven and the earth and sea and fountains of waters.”—Rev. 14:7; 4:10, 11; 7:11, 12; 11:16, 17; compare 1 Chronicles 29:20; Revelation 5:13, 14.
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The Watchtower, May 15th, 1954, Pages 317-318:
"In translating Hebrews 1:6 An American Translation does not follow its rendering of Psalm 97:7 and use “worship” but says: “And let all God’s angels bow before him.” The New World Translation says: “And let all God’s angels worship him.” Is the New World Translation inferior here, or has it violated its general rule of endeavoring as far as possible to render each Greek word of the Christian Greek Scriptures by one English equivalent? The answer to these questions is No! What, then, is the reason for its saying “worship” instead of “bow down” or “do obeisance”? As already stated in the above-mentioned Watchtower article the Greek word here rendered “worship” is the word pros·ky·ne´o." [...]
"In the New World Translation we note that when this Greek verb pros·ky·ne´o is applied to Jesus as a man on earth or materializing as a man after his resurrection, it is translated “do obeisance.” However, when referring to the glorified Jesus in the invisible heavens in the presence of the holy angels, the New World Translation makes a change and renders pros·ky·ne´o as applied to him by the English word “worship.” (Heb. 1:6) This is properly and consistently done. This Greek verb occurs only twice in the book of Hebrews, here at Hebrews 1:6 and at Hebrews 11:21 where Jacob is described as worshiping Jehovah God: “By faith Jacob, when about to die, blessed each of the sons of Joseph and worshiped [pros·ky·ne´o] leaning upon the top of his staff.” (NW; referring to Genesis 47:31, where the LXX also uses pros·ky·ne´o) So in the book of Hebrews pros·ky·ne´o is both times rendered “worship” and the angels of God are instructed to “worship” the glorified Jesus. Why is this? Because Jesus has been made so much higher than the angels, even higher than he was before he became a man on earth. (Phil. 2:5-11) It is the command of Jehovah God that they do this toward his Son. What does this mean? This, that even the angels are to render their worship of Jehovah God through Jesus Christ, whom Jehovah God has made the Head of his universal organization. That is why it is stated on page 85 of the book “Make Sure of All Things”, column 1: “Christ to Be Worshiped as a Glorious Spirit, Victorious over Death on the Torture Stake,” with three scriptures accompanying to prove that he is now a glorified spirit, and now no more flesh.
"It is because the glorified Jesus Christ acts as the appointed representative of Jehovah God that worship must go to God through him, even on the part of the angels. This explains why Psalm 97:7 and Deuteronomy 32:43, which, according to their context, evidently refer to Jehovah God, are applied by the writer of Hebrews to Jehovah’s Son Jesus Christ. The Son of God is Jehovah’s High Priest, hence subordinate to Jehovah God; but as High Priest according to the likeness of Melchizedek the glorified Jesus Christ leads all creation in the worship of Jehovah God. Hence worship of all creation must go to the one living and true God Jehovah through him. In the present-time fulfillment of Deuteronomy 32:43 and Psalm 97:7, the High Priest Jesus Christ acts as the direct representative for his Father Jehovah and, therefore, Hebrews 1:6 properly involves Jesus Christ glorified in the application of these scriptures. Well, then, since the angels are commanded to worship the glorified Jesus at his second coming, should not we, who, as humans, are so much less than angels, likewise worship him? In answer we say, We must render to him what God’s Word says we must. [...]"
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I did not quote the entire articles, I recommend that you look them up on your Watchtower Library CD (if you have one) or at the Kingdom Hall Library.
Not only that, the Apostle Thomas referred to Jesus as "The God [ho theos] of me!" Can you give me your understanding of what Thomas meant at John 20:28, and why Jesus said those who believe the same will be blessed at John 20:29?
Why didn't Jesus correct Thomas, and say, "No, only My Father is the God of you, I am only His Son, His Representative"?
