Well, well, the first thing that appealed to me when I started talking with JWs was their simple approach to God's nature, because, although a catholic, I had never managed to believe this complex trinity thing, which just looked like an unnecessary intellectual exercise, unwothy of a god who wants to let himself known by the humblest persons. I 'm leaving the JWs now, for reasons which are common to many of us, but I think I will stick to their notion of God, more within my intellectual grasp.
Clarifying the Trinity Doctrine
by UnDisfellowshipped 123 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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BurnTheShips
You should read the link I posted before replying prematurely.
Perry, I am interacting with you, not your lengthy link.
Regarding my premise, I think it still holds. Jesus left a definite Church, and promised it would be protected until the end.
BTS
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Perry
BTS,
Perhaps you should start a thread entitled something like "What is the nature and composition of the church Jesus promised to protect?
You and I have gotten off topic here. It is an excellent topic though.
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JustHuman14
BurnTheShips you pointed again very good issues regarding apostasy. Perry unforutanately the Papal Church fell into serious mistakes when they broke from the Apostolic Church. I feel my self privaleged because I can read the Bible the way it was written in Greek. So I can have a complete idea how it was mistranslated from Greek to Latin.
There is much difference from the Orthodox Church and the Papal Church. Orthodox Church NEVER burned in fire those who disagree with them. When Papal Church try to burn Galileo because he said the eath was round, the Orthodox Church never bothered to deal with such rediculous issues, since we Greeks KNEW that the Earth was round thousands of years ago!! The reason that Protestands face persecution it was due to Papal's Church hatred a result because they left the Original Church.
Most of all I can trace ALL THE LINE OF BISHOPS 2000 YEARS from James the First Bishop. This is something that NO ONE else can prove their succesion. Even the Papal Church that they became heretics after schisma in 1080 AD
The Orthodox Christians in Constantinople suffered 2 major crusades by the Papal Church, and they have destroyed the Capitol, seize holy relics, steal gold,raped, killed CHRISTIANS. The end of the East Roman Empire came by the Turks that found a half dead empire. The Papal Church did not even helped the East Roman Christians(Byzantine)from the Ottoman attack. It was the end of the most long lasted Empire 1000 years. An Empire that was so precious in CHRISTIAN HISTORY
There is so much difference between the 2 churches. Also just to clarify this, for the Apostolic Church there is no condemnation for the rest of Christian dominations. We strongly beleive that ALL we will be SAVED THROUGH OR LORD AND GOD JESUS....
But there is one question: Why have cotton when you can have SILK?
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Perry
But there is one question: Why have cotton when you can have SILK?
Being half Sicilian I have a lot of Catholic relatives. One of my mothers' cousins who knows that I am a born again Christian approached me, laid her had on my shoulder and said something like "I may be Catholic, but I know who the boss is. My faith is only in Jesus Christ". Based on her simple testimony, I believe she is saved. Jesus is saving people not organizations.
Having said that, there are a number of things taught by both the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church that, if believed upon would cause the contractural offer of salvation to be withdrawn by God. You can search my most recent posts and read about some of my thoughts on this subject.
We should all heed Jesus warning that one day he will face some "believers" and tell them that he never knew them. This is not some willy nilly pronouncement based on who was good or not. There is a legal basis for salvation and for damnation as I have explained in recent posts. I'd love to participate in a thread based on points you and BTS have brought up.
I'll be preparing for my son's 4 yr. old birthday party today. Gotta go mow and trim two acres ....
Ciao
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Satanus
Regarding baptists...
I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing
on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said "Stop!
don't do it!"
"Why shouldn't I?" he said.
I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!"
He said, "Like what?"
I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?"
He said, "Religious."
I said, "Me too! Are you christian or buddhist?"
He said,"Christian."
I said, "Me too! Are you catholic or protestant?"
He said, "Protestant."
I said, "Me too! Are you episcopalian or baptist?"
He said, "Baptist!"
I said,"Wow! Me too! Are you baptist church of god or
baptist church of the lord?"
He said, "Baptist church of god!"
I said, "Me too! Are you original baptist church of god,
or are you reformed baptist church of god?"
He said,"Reformed Baptist church of god!"
I said, "Me too! Are you reformed baptist church of god,
reformation of 1879, or reformed baptist church of god,
reformation of 1915?"
He said, "Reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!"
I said, "Die, heretic scum", and pushed him off.
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Satanus
Then, there's INDEPENDENT BAPTISTS...
A man went to heaven and was being shown around by St. Peter.
As they went from cloud to cloud they came to various doors which
St. Peter would open. One showed a large group rolling on the floor
and talking in tongues. "Our Pentecostals" he said..
Next was a serious ritual. "Our Jewish persuasion" he replied.
Then another ritualistic service. "Our Catholics".
At the next cloud, he didn't open the door but instead put his
forefinger to his lips in the hush motion and they both tip toed
past.. Once past, the man asked what that was all about !?
"Those are the Independent Baptists", he explained. "They think they are the
only one's here".
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BurnTheShips
ROFL.
I've heard both jokes, but it is still funny.
BTS
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UnDisfellowshipped
The Oracle said:
"What about Horus?"
From everything I've read, the only "connections" between Jesus and Horus are undocumented, unsubstantiated claims made by people on the Internet and in books.
See this webpage for more facts: http://tektonics.org/copycat/osy.html
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UnDisfellowshipped
Androb31,
Hi, how are you? Thanks for your post! You made some good points from Zechariah.
I think those verses clearly show that more than one person is referred to as Yahweh (Jehovah) in the Bible.
In addition to those that you posted, I would add these:
In Genesis and in Isaiah, Yahweh referred to Himself in the plural ("Us" and "Our"), which implies that there was more than one person within the Elohim Godhead:
Genesis 1:26-27 (WEB): God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the livestock, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” God created man in his own image. In God’s image he created him; male and female he created them.
Genesis 3:22 (WEB): Yahweh God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand, and also take of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever...”
Genesis 11:5-7 (WEB): Yahweh came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men built. Yahweh said, “Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is what they begin to do. Now nothing will be withheld from them, which they intend to do. Come, let’s go down, and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.”
Isaiah 6:8 (WEB): I heard the Lord’s voice, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here I am. Send me!”
Not only that, there is a special Messenger ("Angel") of Yahweh in the Old Testament who is referred to as Yahweh, God, I AM, and is also worshiped and prayed to. This Angel has God's Name within Him:
Zechariah 3:1-2 (WEB): He showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of Yahweh, and Satan standing at his right hand to be his adversary. Yahweh said to Satan, “Yahweh rebuke you, Satan! Yes, Yahweh who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Isn’t this a burning stick plucked out of the fire?”
Genesis 48:15-16 (WEB): He blessed Joseph, and said, “The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, the God who has fed me all my life long to this day, the angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads, and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac. Let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.”
Exodus 3:2-6 (WEB): The angel of Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. Moses said, “I will turn aside now, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.” When Yahweh saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the midst of the bush, and said, “Moses! Moses!” He said, “Here I am.” He said, “Don’t come close. Take your sandals off of your feet, for the place you are standing on is holy ground.” Moreover he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look at God. Yahweh said, “I have surely seen the affliction of my people who are in Egypt, and have heard their cry because of their taskmasters, for I know their sorrows.
Isaiah 63:9-10 (WEB): In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bore them, and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled, and grieved his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he himself fought against them.
This Special Messenger, The Angel of The Lord, was the Angel who led Israel in the wilderness for 40 years:
Exodus 23:20-22 (WEB): “Behold, I send an angel before you, to keep you by the way, and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. Pay attention to him, and listen to his voice. Don’t provoke him, for he will not pardon your disobedience, for my name is in him. But if you indeed listen to his voice, and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies, and an adversary to your adversaries.
The New Testament teaches that the Pre-Human Jesus was the One who led Israel through the wilderness:
1 Corinthians 10:1-5 (WEB): Now I would not have you ignorant, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and all ate the same spiritual food; and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ. However with most of them, God was not well pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
Jude 1:5 (NET): Now I desire to remind you (even though you have been fully informed of these facts once for all) that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, later destroyed those who did not believe. (See also the ESV and New Living Translation of Jude 1:5)