by UnDisfellowshipped 123 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
QuietlyLeaving said:
It is my understanding that both Catholics and Protestants accept the same Christian creeds on the Trinity, and from what I have learned, they both believe and teach all of the things I posted above. It's possible I am wrong, and please let me know if there are some differences between the Catholic Trinity and the Protestant Trinity. |
I was thinking of the filioque clause but it is not a controversial insurmountable difference
ql,
The filioque issue was the occasion (rather than the cause) of the schism between Roman Catholicism and Eastern orthodoxy in the 11th century. Protestantism (being an almost strictly Western phenomenon) generally kept the RCC stance on this issue. I would say there is no difference between the main historical (or official, mainstream) Protestant churches and Catholicism on the Trinity, but otoh a broader definition of Protestantism can include every kind of heterodox Trinitarian or anti-Trinitarian (e.g. Unitarian) doctrines, some of them unconscious (you can hear nice "heresies" from self-taught Pastors of some Evangelical or Pentecostal churches, who would swear they are orthodox...)
Hi, UnDisfellowshipped.
Thank you for much reply.
Although you replied to my comment, did you also read my following comment?
Probably, when explaining the Trinity, I think that it is better to say, "Jesus is LORD" (or "Jesus is God"), IMHO.
Then, I think that Trinitarians should just explain that "LORD" is "Kyrios" in Greek and it is "Jehovah" in the Old Testament (LXX).
That is because he is "I AM" in essence.
From a viewpoint of the Trinity, since Jesus is "I AM", we can also say, "Jesus is Jehovah."
That is because the Trinity accepts only ONE God. (NOT three Gods)
But even if that is right, since "the Son" is clearly different from "the Father", I have said that Jesus is not Jehovah.
And "Jehovah" is the name of "the Father" although it is the point which many Trinitarians misunderstand.
It is not the common name of "the Father", "the Son", and "the Holy Spirit."
That "the Son" has the name of "Jesus" clearly.
If not so, he must have been clearly called "Jehovah" in the New Testament.
And if you read the New Testament, it is clear, the name used in the New Testament repeatedly (the leading actor) is "Jesus" (the Son).
It is the Witnesses who make the claim that only The Father is Jehovah.
It is clearly incorrect in this your explanation.
You must not forget that I am explaining the "Trinity."
(I am not explaining the doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses.)
In the orthodox Trinity doctrine, the divine name "Jehovah" expresses "the Father."
Although I know only Japanese materials, for example, please look at the article of the next website.
http://www.geocities.co.jp/HeartLand-Gaien/6470/unexposed.html
Machine translation is here.
http://www.excite-webtl.jp/world/english/web/?wb_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geocities.co.jp%2FHeartLand-Gaien%2F6470%2Funexposed.html&wb_lp=JAEN&wb_dis=2&wb_submit=+%96%7C+%96%F3+
The person who wrote that article believes the orthodox Trinity doctrine, and is attacking misunderstanding about the Trinity of Jehovah's Witnesses.
He says,
When Jehovah's Witnesses attack the Trinity doctrine, what they say "Jesus is Jehovah" repeatedly is because they do not understand the Trinity correctly.
possible
http://godpresencewithin.web.fc2.com/
P.S.
About Romans 10, I commented in the different thread.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/172746/1/NWT-KIT-Prove-Jesus-IS-Jehovah
I will credit the JW's don't "understand" the trinity doctrine.
I just have to say I have no idea what any of that language means in the OP, not for lack of trying. I personally think it doesn't mean anything and is a linguistic paradox. The evidence seems to indicate to me that the contemplation of this paradox, just like the zen masters do in contemplating other such language phrases, produces a natural brain state of transcendance which becomes a religious experience.
I don't think there is anything to "understand" in any of these descriptions.
And I would also add none of them are supported fully by the bible. You have to rely on orthodoxy and progressive revelation or apostolic succession to even begin establish the "obvious" nature of this doctrine.
ql, The filioque issue was the occasion (rather than the cause) of the schism between Roman Catholicism and Eastern orthodoxy in the 11th century. Protestantism (being an almost strictly Western phenomenon) generally kept the RCC stance on this issue. I would say there is no difference between the main historical (or official, mainstream) Protestant churches and Catholicism on the Trinity, but otoh a broader definition of Protestantism can include every kind of heterodox Trinitarian or anti-Trinitarian (e.g. Unitarian) doctrines, some of them unconscious (you can hear nice "heresies" from self-taught Pastors of some Evangelical or Pentecostal churches, who would swear they are orthodox...) |
narkissos
had another look at my source (wiki of course) and you are right
Well done Undisfellowshipped defending the Trinity doctrine using modern translations!
The Textus Receptus (basis for the KJV) is what I consider to be the word of God and is far more clearer regarding the deity of Jesus. I put this chart together christmas before last:
| SCRIPTURE | KJV | NASB | NIV | NWT |
| 1 Cor. 15:47 | The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. | the first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. | The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. | the first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven |
| Zech 12: 9,10 (Jehovah is speaking) | and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son | so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son | They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child | and they will certainly look to the One whom they pierced through, and they will certainly wail over Him as in the wailing over an only [son]; |
| Micah 5: 2 (Jesus is from everlasting...before time) | Bethlehem...out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting | Bethlehem...From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity | Bethlehem...out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times | Beth´le
|
| Daniel 3:25 (The Son of God made occasional appearance in the OT) | the Son of God | a son of the gods | a son of the gods | a son of the gods |
| I Timothy 3:16 | God was manifest in the flesh | He who was revealed in the flesh | He appeared in a body | He was made manifest in the flesh |
| Acts 3:13, 26 | his Son Jesus | His Servant Jesus | His Servant Jesus | His Servant Jesus |
| Philippians 2:6 (Jesus did not think that he was robbing God by being his equal) | thought it not robbery to be equal with God | did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped | did not consider equality with God something to be grasped | gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God |
| Acts 8:37 | that Jesus Christ is the Son of God | omitted (marginal note) | omitted (footnote) | omitted |
| John 6:69 | thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God | You are the Holy One of God | You are the Holy One of God | You are the Holy One of God |
| John 9:35 | Son of God | Son of Man | Son of Man | Son of Man |
| Matthew 20:20 | worshipping him | bowing down | kneeling down | doing obeisance |
| Matthew 19:17 | And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God | "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good | "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. | "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is that is good. |
| Hosea 13: 4 (was isn't the same as is) | Yet I am the LORD thy God... for thereis no saviour beside me | Yet I {have been} the LORD your God... For there is no savior besides Me. | "But I am the Lord your God... You shall acknowledge ... no Savior except me. | "But I am Jehovah your God ...and there was no savior but I. |
| John 4:42 (Both Jehovah and Christ are the only saviour" - See above) | this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world | this One indeed is the Savior of the world | this man really is the savior of the world | this man is for a certainty the savior of the world |
| Romans 1:3 | Jesus Christ our Lord | omitted | omitted | Lord Jesus Christ |
| Ephesians 3:14 | of our Lord Jesus Christ | omitted | omitted | omitted |
| I Thess. 2:19 | our Lord Jesus Christ | our Lord Jesus | our Lord Jesus | our Lord Jesus |
| I Thess. 3:11 | our Lord Jesus Christ | Jesus our Lord | our Lord Jesus | our Lord Jesus |
| II Thess. 1:8 | our Lord Jesus Christ | our Lord Jesus | our Lord Jesus | our Lord Jesus |
| Ephesians 3:14 | of our Lord Jesus Christ | omitted | omitted | omitted |
| Luke 24:52 | they worshipped him | after worshiping Him | they worshiped him | they did obeisance to him |
| Hebrews1: 5,6 (worshipping anything other than God is idolatry) | Thou art my Son... And let all the angels of God worship him. | YOU ARE MY SON... "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM." | "You are my Son...Let all God's angels worship him." | You are my son; ..."And let all God's angels do obeisance to him." |
| Hebrews 1:8 (See Ps. 45:6) | But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever | But of the Son He says, YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER | But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever | But with reference to the Son: "God is your throne forever (original passage in Psalms was perverted to support this one) |
| John 14:28 | my Father | the Father | the Father | the Father |
| Philippians 4:13 | through Christ | through Him | through Him | by virtue of him |
| Acts 7:59,60 | Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit he...cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. | he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus receive my spirit"! he... cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" | Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit" he cried out, ..."Lord, do not hold this sin against them | he made appeal and said: "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit"... he cried out with a strong voice: "Jehovah, do not charge this sin against them." |
| Acts 20: 28 The Christian God bleeds | feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. | shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood | Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood | shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son] |
| Titus 2:13 (God himself is our savior) | Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us | looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us footnote disclaimer | while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us | while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus, who gave himself for us |
Nice chart :)
All the best,
Stephen
It seems that the subject is going strong!!!! For those who try to explain Trinity with Human thinking:
Can you explain with Human mind the idea that God has no beggining or end?
Can you explain that He is beyond Time and Time cannot have any effect on God?
Can you explain how He can be omnipresent?
Can you explain ressurection?
Can you explain the mystery of Holy Communion when the Wine and Bread turns into the REAL FLESH AND BLOOD OF JESUS?
Can you explain miracles that Saints perform and cured and STILL cure believers?
There many things that Human understanding cannot conceive. You try to explain Trinity with human mind and you condemn something you do not understand.
Well Trinity was in the Old Testament, and in the New Testament. The Word was with God, and GOD WAS THE WORD...
Perhaps is about time to see the real problem that you will have when you do not accept JESUS AS THE GOD....For the Early Apostolic Church, we have writtings from the Succesors of the Apostoles, like Bishop Ignatios 120AD and many more early writtings that accepted Trinity... The only problem is that the Protestands and Unitarians have broke from the Roman Catholic Church who unforutnately left with a schisma the Holy Apostolic Church. Protestands have no idea of the History and writtings that the Early Apostolic Church has and most of all NO APOSTOLIC SUCCESION...
The reason that the Nicaia Synodos was held it was a matter of definition for the Trinity dogma, that was accepted AS A FACT for more than 300 years of Christian Apostolic history. Arius was a heretic and he was severe panished by God (died in toilet the same day)for his attitude to question what was given from the Holy Spirit to the Apostles.
JustHuman14 formely known justhuman
The only problem is that the Protestands and Unitarians have broke from the Roman Catholic Church who unforutnately left with a schisma the Holy Apostolic Church. Protestands have no idea of the History and writtings that the Early Apostolic Church has and most of all NO APOSTOLIC SUCCESION
Hi Just Human,
I am not a Protestant or Catholic. There are millions of Independent Baptists, as well as others who are neither Protestant nor Catholic as well. They trace their roots to the congregations of the tens of millions of people in Europe who were burned at the stake for believing in Salvation exclusively through the blood of Jesus as opposed to faith in an organization. This was the original Christianity taught by the Apostles. The scriptures of these groups are traceable back to Asia Minor, Antioch where believers were first called Christians.
You can learn about Apostolic Christianity here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx8PdvOELvY
The heresy of Salvation through an Organization as taught by the bible cults of Mormons, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses is ancient....but not as ancient as Christianity itself.
