Jesus.....God or God's son? (page 23)

Johnnytwofeet

What we have here is two crazy people arguing over who is less crazy.

elohim is not plual in the sense you would make it, you show a total lack of understanding hebrew by saying that. Jews understand YHWH to be ONE God and completely the only one, Jesus totally backs this up.

Apart from the fact your trying to say 'there's only ONE Gods' is a bible teaching which doesn't make any sense lets goto a hebrew site for confirmation....

So why does Elohim have a plural suffix if it is numerically singular with a singular verb and singular adjective? It turns out there is a special type of plural in Hebrew that has a plural suffix even though it is numerically singular with a singular verb and singular adjective. These nouns are called majestic plurals. The meaning of the plural suffix in the majestic plural is not that there is more than one of the noun, but that the noun is "great, absolute, or majestic". For example, ?????? means "master" while ????????? (Isa 19:4; Mal 1:6) with the masculine plural suffix means "great master, lord". Thus we read, "I will imprison the Egyptians in the hand of a harsh lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them" (Isa 19:4). In this verse the fierce king that will enslave Egypt is described as an ???????? ?????? "a harsh (sg) lord (pl)". In this verse, the plural suffix attached to the word ???????? does not make it a numerical plural ("masters") but instead magnifies the meaning ("great master, lord"). Because ???????? is a majestic plural it receives the singular adjective ?????? (harsh) and not the plural adjective ??????? that would be required for a numerical plural. The word ?????? also means "master" while ????????? with the masculine plural suffix means "great master, owner". For example, in Exodus 21 the owner of the "goring ox" is repeatedly referred to as the ????????? "owner". The word ????????? has the plural suffix even though the ox is only owned by one person. In this case, the plural suffix magnifies the noun imbuing it with a connotation of "absolute owner, complete master". Because ????????? "owner" is a majestic plural it gets a singular verb. Thus we read concerning the negligent owner whose ox has killed, "the ox shall be stoned and the owner (he) will be put to death" (Ex 21:29). The verb ?????? meaning "he will be put to death" is in the singular even though the word for "owner" ????????? has the plural suffix. The common characteristic of majestic plurals is that they have the plural suffix while denoting singular objects and as a result they receive singular adjectives and singular verbs. Elohim is quite simply an example of the majestic plural and means "great God".

/sigh the elohim argument is so basic a misunderstanding on hebrew and yet another example of trinitarians thinking they can even change languages to suit their doctrine.

http://www.israelofgod.org/elohim1.htm

Reniaa

Johnnytwofeet

Crazy person number one gives a firm rebuttal to crazy person number 2. She posts a long unformatted wall of text which may or may not (no one will ever read it) demolition of crazy person 2's argument from before. She also implies that crazy person number 2 DOESN'T UNDERSTAND HEBREW.

This is getting vicious.

reniaa

Hi johnny

if Posiblesan is saying elohim is plural gods then they absolutely don't understand hebrew but i posted a link so if rather than mock you actually read it maybe you will learn something rather than just bait people.

Reniaa

Johnnytwofeet

Crazy person number one stuns the audience by attacking the moderator. These are truly inspired tactics by crazy person number 1!!! What will crazy person number 2 do?

We sit and wait and watch!

reniaa

and here is more on the oneness of YHWH/Jehovah in the hebrew site

That YHWH is a single individual and not a multiplicity of gods or personalities is consistent with what we find throughout the Hebrew Scriptures. Moses declares to the children of Israel, "YHWH is our Elohim, YHWH is one" (Dt 6:4). Were YHWH a multiplicity of gods or personalities what would be the point of saying that He is "one"? It is worth noting that it does not say YHWH is one of something (one god, one personality). He is just simply "one", in every respect of the word. Similarly, the prophet Zechariah tells us about the universal worship of YHWH at the end of days, "And YHWH will be king over the entire earth; at that time YHWH will be one and his name will be one" (Zech 14:9). Zechariah is saying that today people multiply YHWH but at the end-time all mankind will know that YHWH is a single individual deity with one single name. We are taught in the book of Isaiah that YHWH is the one and only, "I am YHWH and besides me there is no savior" (Isa 43:11). Elsewhere in Isaiah, YHWH poses the rhetorical question, "Is there an Eloha (God) besides me?" (Isa 44:8). Similarly we read in the Psalms, "Who is an Eloha (God) besides YHWH and who is a rock (=savior) besides our Elohim?" (Ps 18:32). In these verses the word for "God" is Eloha ????????, the singular form of Elohim. These passages are saying that YHWH is an Eloha and besides Him there is no other Eloha. Indeed, YHWH is called by the singular Eloha (God) some 47 times throughout the Hebrew Scriptures which proves that He is not a plurality or multiplicity. This and the fact that the verbs and adjectives connected with Elohim are always singular confirm our conclusion that Elohim is an majestic plural denoting a singular individual but with a connotation of greatness.

and Jesus backs the highlighted point completely

John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

/sigh this is the great truth of the bible and all the rhetoric in the world cannot change God's words. Amen

Romans 3:4
Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge."

Reniaa

Johnnytwofeet

Crazy Person number 1 returns with another copy and paste of a (presumably) convincing argument. However, she once again stuns her audience with a formatless wall of text which renders all reading useless!

What skill! What grace! Truly crazy person number 2 cannot withstand the barrage of so many devastating cut and pastes. Where are HIS cut and pastes??? Can his cut and pastes stand up to the ruthless logic of the cut and pastes of crazy person number 1?

We can't wait to find out!!!

Spike Tassel

Of course, the argument now is not over a Trinity (3 as 1), but a Duality (2 as 1). Also, there is the matter of native language, which must be considered as well. What possible-san states as his Trinity is actually the Duality that reniaa (a.k.a. Renny) and I (Spike Tassel) believe and support, as my next post will bear out.

possible-san

Hi, reniaa.

I think that you are an arrogant lady.
Even if I explain how many times, you are stubborn and cannot understand correctly.

elohim is not plual in the sense you would make it, you show a total lack of understanding hebrew by saying that.

Thank you for your explanation about Hebrew.
Although you looked at the English Bible and answered to me, I examined the Hebrew Bible and answered to you.

It is the fact that Hebrew "God" is the plural.

“Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.” DEUTERONOMY 6:4

So, I said that "literal translation" is "Gods."

I think that you should not make a fool of "the literal meaning" of a word.
Probably, the NWT will be meaningless if it is right.

possible
http://godpresencewithin.web.fc2.com/

reniaa

Erm spike I support no duality at all! Jesus is God's son, lord, king high priest and mediator but he is NOT GOD he even has divine power from God and qualities of his father but this again does not make him the Great God. IS a son and his father the same person? never in the way God created us and describes himself and his son. Being alike and of the same purpose does not make them the same being.

I hope you mean something other than what I have taken you to mean spike

Reniaa

Jesus.....God or God's son?

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