Thanks for the information Barbara. It shows some small baby steps have been taken, it's not enough not nearly enough, but it is something.
Joe explained how I felt about elders handling child abuse allegations. Joe specifically said to Chuck, “Child abuse is a crime, not just a sin and it should always be reported to the authorities. Elders shouldn’t be involved in making a determination of guilt or innocence.
+1
Sola said:
Since the abuse that happened against you occurred before your parents were JWs, their was nothing the Elders could of done to them.
Yeah I know. Funny enough, at the time, back in '88/'89 I wasn't really interested in having him removed or even disfellowshipped. At the time, I was suicidal and I looked toward Jehovah's Witnesses to help me make sense out of what had happened to me, and what I was feeling. Originally I revealed only what my worldly grandfather had done. I was in therapy but I really wanted spiritual issues addressed, specifically about God.
It was shocking to me that elders had I known for 15+ years, most I considered to be good friends, turned so legal and so harsh on me. This was when I first found out about the two witness rule. I remember several "encouragement" visits that were cruel and mean. Even one of the elders, a local doctor, excused himself and left because he became physically ill at how othes were talking to me.
"Jehovah is far too busy to be interested in your petty little problems." That's one I remember
Again, at that point, I wasn't interested in removing anyone. I was simply trying to make sense out of insanity. Those elders told me I was the only one, that they had never heard of such a thing as incest. Yet at that very moment, in that exact congregation was the elder I told you about earlier. That elder covered up his child's abuse and the elder body told him to do so. I did not find out about this until I was on this board and I met that child, now adult and they told me.
After a year of this, I finally started getting angry and I stayed angry for a couple of years. I look back with quite a bit of embarassment. I was furious at the entire process. I was tired of being told how wrong I was, how little faith I had and so on. And I began looking at the organization's rules differently. I researched this two witness rule and I found out it is not based on scripture. You yourself admit it is based only on a tenuous principle. Two witnesses to a disagreement is a quantum leap from demanding a child present 2 witnesses to prove they were raped.
But the anger was helpful in one way, it gave me courage to face up to my parents and I shouted from the rooftops what they did. And I was completely shunned by nearly every single Witness in the Dallas/Fort Worth metroplex (we knew people from about a dozen congregations). I lost all but a couple of friends, which only made me angrier and I raised the volume. This is when I sought ought those COs and the district overseer. The more Jehovah's Witnesses tried to beat me down the more I fought back. Curiously enough, in the beginning my parents did not deny my accusations. It was only later that they changed their story and suddenly became very innocent.
Finally my mother died from cancer. Not only was I forbidden to attend her funeral at the KH, not only did the elder giving the talk deliberately leave my name out, they posted brothers outside the Hall just in case I tried to show.
I knew very well my parents were worldly when it happened. I was there. I've said online that I left because of the two witness rule, and it's true. I've said online that I told the elders about my father and that he is still a ministerial servant in good standing, and it's true.When I pursued my father judicially, it was because he was a liar. And so I intereviewed and I gathered evidence and I asked my grandmother and aunt if they would testify, and they agreed. And the elders refused.
But I also left because of the repulsive, disgusting way Jehovah's Witnesses behaved. I knew Jehovah's Witnesses were wrong one day listening to the public talk and the speaker, someone who had made the comment I quoted above, was talking about treating others with kindness and love and mercy and he read this scripture from Matthew 25:
For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?' 45 Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.'
That was when it struck me like seeing a bright penny. I had to get out. This was an evil rule and that religion was treating me badly. And I remember thinking that if it happened to me, it's probably happening to someone else somewhere else. When Al Gore invented the Internet, I found out I was right, despite the lies those elders told me.
Maybe it makes a difference to you that my parents were not baptized Jehovah's Witnesses, but it does not to me. I don't know, maybe it makes a difference to god. I don't know. Maybe he just doesn't give a shit about me; that's what I was told and considering my life it's reasonable to think that. I do know my father moved on to my sisters and yes that did happen after baptism. They didn't change, and in looking back I'm amazed anyone could think they would change. Offenders offend. That's just what they do. Religion only provides a cover.
Sorry for rambling, my story is somewhat complicated and I've left out some bad parts but I wanted to respond to what you said. It's funny but I've said more about my past in these last 2 posts to you than I have in the 7+ years on this board.
This Wall Of Silence is what I believe is at the heart of most unreported Abuse that occurs within the family.
Exactly! We're finally on the same page. I'm glad we can agree on something!
And this is exactly the problem with Jehovah's Witnesses and the two witness rule. Don't you see? If the sexual offender denies it, and of course he will, and there are not two witnesses the matter stops right there. From what I've experienced and from what I've read, it is irrelevent to Jehovah's Witnesses whether the offender is convicted or not.
I think it was you said earlier in this thread -- "knowledge is power". Yes I absolutely agree with this. And if what Barbara said is true, and she's never wrong, then I'm glad that at the very least individual congregations are doing the bare minimum and removing privileges. It's not enough, not nearly enough, but it's something.
If you had the power to write a new JW policy, what exactly would it be? and what steps would you implement to ensure compliance from all the Elders & C.O.s?
- Elders should not be policemen. If a parent reports their child has been abused it should be reported immediately irregardless of what state law mandates. Yes parents should report, and Jehovah's Witnesses should make it okay to report crimes without fear of bringing reproach on Jehovah's name (be it child abuse, murder, burgular or whatever); let the secular authorities do their job;
- Until the matter is decided the accused, while legally innocent until proven guilty, out of an abundance of caution should never be left alone with children out in service, at the Kingdom Hall, etc.;
- Elders actually have a real and important job and that is to minister, both to the accused and the accuser and the accuser's family. If the child has been abused, then there are spiritual issues that need to be addressed. This is an area that elders should be trained to deal with, reasoning and explaining from the Bible what god's role in all of this is. If the accused is innocent, then he is going to have some pretty tough questions as well. He's going to need some help, ala Job;
- If the courts convict the accused he should be disfellowshipped. If Jehovah's Witnesses want to keep the two witness rule, then the conviction is the second witness. If he's not, then he should be welcomed back; any and all testimony or evidence from whatever source must be heard
- The victim should not be stigmatized. The victim and the victim's family should not be shunned or blamed. If the elders see that happening in their congregation they should get involved (see addressing spiritual questions above).
Shorthand answer would be to follow the KISS philosophy -- Keept It Simple Stupid. Above all else, Christianity is supposed to be a philosophy and way of life based on love, not rules or judgment. As John Lennon said Love is the answer
I agree with you! This is one of my pet peeves with the GB.
Thanks for that. You are a rare Witness in that you are open minded, intelligent and mostly willing to see things as they are rather than what you would like them to be.
Yes! but what is the Magic number? years? decades? centuries? We can apply that reasoning to any relationship or commitment we have made. A Marriage mate, A Job, our Government. At what definitive point do we throw the baby out with the dirty bath water?
I told you my tipping point. I don't think there is one definitive answer to this question. As with the nation of Israel, when Jehovah judged them "bad", was he saying every single individual had stopped true worship? What was the exact number? The Bible doesn't say. Maybe it's a case of the direction of the organization, what the leadership teaches and what they want everyone else to do that matters. At some point, however, one must no longer look at individual mistakes, organizational oversights and begin to see a systemic problem. I don't think you've reached that point yet.
I respectfully disagree. Here's why: Christians are no longer under the Mosaic Law, so you won't find as many "do this" & "don't do that" laws as you would find in the Mosaic Law.
True. If memory serves, Christians only have 2 laws -- love your neighbour and love your god. Every other rule is added on by imperfect men. I think this is the problem I have with religion in general, not just Jehovah's Witnesses. We've really made it quite complicated, but Jesus started out very simply -- love.
Love would certainly address the child abuse issue very well. Love would say to protect the defenseless. Love would say to minister to the needs of both the accused and the accuser. Love would say be wise. Love would say be patient.
If Jehovah's Witnesses allowed love to guide their actions, patience till the the verdict is reached, wisdom in keeping children out of reach and ministering to needs is much more Christian approach than endless rules and regulations and procedures about a volatile and dangerous subject they know very little.
I think Jesus made his 2 laws deliberately gray, allowing us to fill in the gaps. Yes?
I have seen more Good than Bad in my many years as a JW living in various cities and experiencing various congregations on an intimate level. You have seen more Bad than Good I presume.
Then you are lucky and in some ways I envy you. You remind me of the only Witness friend I have and even now we do not speak very often. He's uncomfortable with me, even though I was never disfellowshipped or disassociated. If you have your spirituality resolved and are in a good place, then you are ahead of me. Yes I have seen more bad than good and that has led me to ask some very difficult answers which Jehovah's Witnesses cannot answer.
As for the Catholic Church, honestly I have major, major problems with them. To me it's quite like comparing Jeffrey Dahmer to Jack the Ripper. At the very least, and I do mean very least, the Catholic Church has admitted there is a problem and they have begun to address it.
Based on what you and Barbara have said, maybe Jehovah's Witnesses have started to address it as well. I've been out for so long, maybe things have started to change. I hope so.
As I've said before, you seem like a straight shooter, someone who is trying to do right. From what I've seen in the 18 years I was in wasn't that way. I will say if more elders behaved as you seem to, I do not think child abuse would have been the problem it has.
I disagree, strongly, with the policies of Jehovah's Witnesses and the Catholic Church for that matter, but hopefully there are enough decent guys like you around to make a difference. I'm afraid not, but hope springs eternal.
As for scriptures, the only one that means much to me is 1 Cor. 13. I suspect you know it and practice it already.
Be well,
Chris
