IS THE WATCHTOWER A FALSE PROPHET?

by You Know 207 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • siegswife
    siegswife

    “You gain the knowledge of the inspired expression from God by this: Every inspired expression that confesses Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh originates with God, but every inspired expression that does not confess Jesus does not originate with God.”

    Since the Society doesn't know who Jesus was *before* he came in the flesh(teaching that he was the archangel Michael), the fact of the matter is that they *do not* confess him (the Word) as having come in the flesh. They are misrepresenting who it was that *came in the flesh*, thus denying the identity of the one who *did* come in the flesh. False prophets.

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    OK. I shall cast my die and interject a few brief thoughts.

    Irregardless of the final public outcome of this debate concerning "prophets/prophecies", a very important point is not receiving the attention and emphasis it deserves.

    The point is this; whether the WTBS is any kind of prophet (good, bad, true, false, otherwise), the individual followers have no choice other than PROPOGATE, PUBLICIZE, and PANDER whatever the "appointed" slave is claiming.

    While it is obvious to me that the WTBS has tangled itself in its literature and its history, the rank and file witnesses are forced by association, guilt, fear and reprisal to embrace and endorse whatever claims are made by the organization. There is no other choice.

    Robert (YOU KNOW) is in the same predicament. They are intimidated into obedience and sacrifice under the guide that when the Master returns, he will set all matters straight and that will fix everything inside and outside of the organization. Whether Robert has secret doubts or misgivings, he CANNOT vocalize them anywhere but here, in the land of apostasy.

    If he stated publicly amongst other active JW's that the organization has made numerous errors and hypocrites and molesters within the organization will be exposed and corrected by Jehovah, he would be removed from privileges of service and promptly chastised.

    The most dangerous element of the WTBS is the tyrannical insistence on absolute devotion and obedience, above and beyond sriptural requirements. This ensures and guarantees mass compliance with any sort of organizational teaching, dogma, prophetic and inspirational claims, irregardless of their origin.

    The tragedy that millions worldwide must advocate and teach such information to maintain a "good standing" with the God they worship according to administrative criteria is preposterous, to say the least.

    Even if the WTBS & FDS were simple prophets, inspired only by sincere and meditated bible study, making no bold claims or assertions, and claiming only scripture as authority, the average adherent is still harmed by subjection to human interpretation based on pre-conceived adventism and therefore would be prevented from making a personal discovery on their own. In many cases, an individual with a balanced secular education, and open mind could conceivably at the very least, arrive at similar or more logical conclusions from unencumbered research. Many here have demonstrated this feature of religious freedom.

    This is cult-like behavior and mind control, no matter how "prophetically" Robert may slice it. Much to his chagrin, he is also a victim and co-dependently aids and abets the organization in this practice.

    It is unfortunate.

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    If the policy of enforced indoctrination and obedience does not remind you of Fortune 500 Corporate Marketing practices, then what does?

    Whether the company is right or wrong, whether the company created a harmful product intentionally or by accident, the "spinners" go into action like the Marines and weave their magical webs of "lex mercantilium" to advise and inform the masses.

    So, as a company changes it posture and rhetoric (consider the FORD Explorer and Firestone Tire situation), you begin to notice the subtle hints and nuances of dishonesty and chicannery at work.

    The truth becomes inconsequential because it now no longer discernable, minus a herculean effort by anyone courageous enough to take on the task. The "spinners" succeed in their campaign to align thoughts in a new direction.

    So, it is no longer an issue what a prophet is or who the prophet is, but rather will continue in your acceptance, obedience and sacrifice according to whatever information is published?

    This paradigm could be feasibly applied to any faith, using the "new light" and "prophecy" measurements. Therefore, the Catholic Church is awaiting new light and a cleansing of their temple from the Master, as well as the Protestants, Mormons, Jews, Muslims, etc..

    Where does it end? In that case, either everybody has the truth, or no one does? I think "YOU KNOW" the answer!

    "FALSUS IN UNO, FALSUS IN TOTO"!

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    Deceipt is right

    He does not impart his holy spirit and an understanding and appreciation of his Word apart from his visible organization.
    ..... However, for God to answer our prayers for his spirit we must meet his conditions, among which is that we recognize the visible channel he is using for that very purpose.
    July 1, 1965 WT pg 391

    This quote is taken directly from the 1906 ed.
    Vol. 3 of STUDY IN THE SCRIPTURES - "Thy Kingdom Come" pg 223

    "That the deliverance of the saints must take place some time BEFORE 1914..........Just how long BEFORE 1914 the last living members of the body of Christ will be glorified, we are not directly informed...

    This quote is taken directly from the 1916 ed.
    Vol. 3 of STUDY IN THE SCRIPTURES - "Thy Kingdom Come" pg 223

    "That the deliverance of the saints must take place very soon AFTER 1914..........Just how long AFTER 1914 the last living members of the body of Christ will be glorified, we are not directly informed...

    (Emphasis mine)

    DECEPTIVE LIARS that they are would have deemed the readers not worthy of knowing the truth therefore justified.

    The other even more exciting quotes from these books are where they arrive at the beloved 1914 date by measuring the pyramids, yet condemn such practices by others.
    1906 ed.pg 342 combines measurements of 3457" = 3457 years along with a bunch of other ridiculous #s to come up with 1914, then
    1916 ed.pg 342 uses 3416" = 3416 years

    I thought the big thing was a day = year, inches too?

    John Stossel's signature line "Give me a break" sounds good about now.

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    Ultimo Verbo:

    One final smaller point is that if "faith" IS the monumental question and true measurement of the christian quality/personality, then why or how is any such dogma important?

    If the Master is returning to refine and cleanse, all current information and execution of worship may in fact be incorrect, as a whole.

    If the understanding cannot be confirmed, it is not an understanding, it is an assertion. Is not faith "assured" hope in the things "expected", but not seen?

    Robert mentions obedience and faith often, but neglects the power of their meaning via segways and dissertations into pronouncements, judgments and prophecy of many types. As a faithful person, you too will be adjusted and corrected. Why vehemently suppose "YOU KNOW" anything at all, other than to believe?

    Basically, the underlying question for the individual is, "despite all of the evidence presented and its history", could or should you still continue devoting your personal faith and worship to the WTBS and obey its policies and procedures in order to please Almighty God?

    "QUUM HABE SAPIENTIA, NUNC SAPE NIHIL"

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    Witness are taught to "expose the falsehood" of other religions and not to follow something just because their parents do etc, etc.
    There is only 1 way to worship, only 1 God named Jehovah, only 1 organization that is approved, God never lies, not one of confusion, a rejection of the org is a rejection of God. etc., etc.

    You know is only playing his part, doing his duty, although totally missing the 2x4 or is it a camel? in his own eye and denying anyone else their duty!

  • tfs
    tfs

    You Know,

    JF Rutherford wrote,

    "Certain duties and kingdom interests have been committed by the Lord to his ANGELS, which include the TRANSMISSION OF INFORMATION to God's anointed people on the earth for their aid and comfort. Even though we cannot understand how THE ANGELS TRANSMIT THIS INFORMATION, we know that they do it. (Preparation, 1933, pp. 36, 37.)"

    Therefore based upon what he stated above, if God's Angels are involved in the "transmission of information" to the WTS, this is Divine inspiration. The Bible says the "Law was TRANSMITTED by angels" to Moses, God's mediator. (Acts 7:53; Gal. 3:19)

    Also, John on the Isle of Patmos received the "Revelation" as transmitted to him by "angels" miraculously.

    "And he sent forth his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John..." (Rev. 1:2)

    Judge Rutherford is above making the same claim.

    As proof that this above claim is still current and acceptable thinking in WTS-land, even today JWs speak of the anointed remnant aka FD&S as being the 20th century "John class" in their literature. In this capacity they act as God's "Channel" to all mankind and to the JW congregation earthwide.

    "God had a channel for communicating Revelation in John's day, and John was the earthly part of that channel. Likewise, God has a channel for giving spiritual nourishment to his slaves today...Jesus identified the earthly part of this channel as the the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics..." (Revelation Grand Climax pp. 16, 6)

    Angels "transmitted" the Divine message of "Revelation" to John. This makes the apostle John an "inspired" instrument in God's hands. The WTS quote above by JF Rutherford is making the same claim. No reasonable person would be able to distinguish or see any differentiation at all in whats claimed above in what Rutherford said in WTS literature in practical terms, and what you have referred to them being. In essense a NONinspired, "spirit-directed" agency for Christ.

    From my perspective, I submit, a bible study or newly baptized JW would not be able to discern this, nor explain it to someone else. The way you explain it is much to complex and complicated, as follows:

    Please, read my question again, carefully. Here, I will re-word it for you: If the angels have transmitted extra-biblical information into the minds of Jehovah's Witnesses, in the form of a prophecy or whatever, please explain to me what these transmissions consist of? Everything I have ever read in the Watchtower is fully acreditted as coming from the Bible...I can't recall ever coming across anything that the Watchtower attributed to direct divine transmission.
    What Judge Rutherford wrote above contradicts that thought.

    I explained how God's spirit and angels can direct us in the path of the truth. Angels could be said to lead us to discover Biblical truth, as in the early days of the Bible Students...surely there must be some evidence of these extra-biblical communications in the Watchtower archives somewhere?
    I think you will find the following, an outstanding example of either angelic transmitted "Biblical truth" discovered "in the early days of the Bible Students", or regrettably, an "extra-biblical communication in Watchtower archives" evidently NOT coming from God. You decide.

    Taken from the JW 1975 Yearbook pp. 75, 2-3.

    "The World", New York city newspaper wrote the article "End of All Kingdoms in 1914." There it was stated in part, "The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy. For a quarter of a century past, through preachers, and through press, the International Bible Students, best known as Millenial Dawners, have been proclaiming to the world that the Day of Wrath prophesied in the Bible would dawn in 1914. 'Look out for 1914!' has been the cry of the hundreds of travelling eveangelists who, representing this strange creed.."

    "...Charles T. Russell is the man who has been propounding this interpretation of the Scriptures, since 1874...In view of this strong Bible evidence, Rev. Russell wrote in 1889,

    "we consider it an ESTABLISHED TRUTH that the FINAL END of the kingdoms of this world and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God will be accomplished by the end of A.D. 1914." (1975 JWs Yearbook pp. 75, 3)

    An "established truth"?

    To Yo YoMama:

    The brothers were not predicting, but trying to understand Bible chronology and prophesy....they were not telling the brothers what to believe."
    The above is a "prediction", bold enough to be written about in a newspaper in New York. Since the world recognized this message as being propounded for many years prior to 1914 by CT Russell & associates, they gave them exclusive credit for it.

    At You Know's request, this information is taken from Watchtower archives. Honestly, was this an extra-biblical "established truth" transmitted by Angels to the "John class"?

    Or, a message from man alone?

    Based on the above, shall we say the WTS is the 20th century equivalent of apostle John, God's channel, acting the part of the "John class"?

    tfs

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman
    This statement is an exageration. Could you post all the blunders and then post all the Bible truths that they go right?

    Here's a link to a list of several hundred "blunders":
    http://www.freeminds.org/history/part1.htm
    And remember, it only takes one "blunder" when claiming to speak in God's name to be a false prophet.

    As for what they got right, uh, hmmm...well, they do teach that there is a God...

    Tom
    "The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman
    The brothers were not predicting, but trying to understand Bible chronology and prophesy. They were not telling the reader what to believe, but to come to their own conclusions on the scriptures.

    The statements that were made about the generation of 1914 were presented as "Jehovah's prophetic Word through Jesus Christ" and "the Creator's promise." If that is not 'predicting,' I don't know what is. And the Watchtower absolutely forbids Jehovah's Witnesses to 'come to their own conclusions on the scriptures.' Such is considered "independent thinking," and one who persists in it can be disfellowshipped as an apostate. JW's are expected to accept completely what is published by the "slave" class, and to "wait on Jehovah" if they disagree with it, saying nothing publicly, or even privately to other JW's. Many here can attest that these things are true.

    Tom
    "The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    You Know wanted some proof from Watchtower publications that Watchtower leaders have published things that they suggested at the time were directly inspired. Here are a couple of examples, along with more general statements that JW leaders are inspired.

    The Society has published anecdotes that attempt to show direct guidance by God of the actions of certain of its members. The 1975 Yearbook described how Jehovah’s Witnesses got their name, and related this story on pages 150-1:

    When he was eighty-eight years old A. H. Macmillan attended the "Fruitage of the Spirit" Assembly of Jehovah’s Witnesses in the same city [Columbus, Ohio]. There, on August 1, 1964, Brother Macmillan made these interesting comments on how the adopting of that name came about:

    "It was my privilege to be here in Columbus in 1931 when we received . . . the new title or name . . . I was amongst the five that were to make a comment on what we thought about the idea of accepting that name, and I told them this briefly: I thought that it was a splendid idea because that title there told the world what we were doing and what our business was. Prior to this we were called Bible Students. Why? Because that’s what we were. And then when other nations began to study with us, we were called International Bible Students. But now we are witnesses for Jehovah God, and that title there tells the public just what we are and what we’re doing. . .

    "In fact, it was God Almighty, I believe, that led to that, for Brother Rutherford told me himself that he woke up one night when he was preparing for that convention and he said, ‘What in the world did I suggest an international convention for when I have no special speech or message for them? Why bring them all here?’ And then he began to think about it, and Isaiah 43 came to his mind. He got up at two o’clock in the morning and wrote in shorthand, at his own desk, an outline of the discourse he was going to give about the Kingdom, the hope of the world, and about the new name. And all that was uttered by him at that time was prepared that night, or that morning at two o’clock. And [there is] no doubt in my mind -- not then nor now -- that the Lord guided him in that, and that is the name Jehovah wants us to bear and we’re very happy and very glad to have it."

    If this is true about Rutherford's getting the idea for the name "Jehovah's witnesses", and "the Lord guided him in that", then it is obvious that "the Lord" put information into Rutherford's head that would not have gotten there otherwise. This is a direct claim by Macmillan that he believed that Rutherford was inspired to come up with the name. Note that this anecdote was published by the Society for a purpose. What purpose? Obviously to suggest that Jehovah God had a direct hand in naming "his organization". Therefore we find that the Society here is suggesting that the JW community believe that Rutherford was inspired to come up with that name.

    The Watch Tower, April 1, 1923, said on page 106, in the "Question and Answer" section:

    Question: Did the order go forth eight months ago to the Pilgrims to cease talking about 1925? Have we more reason, or as much, to believe the kingdom will be established in 1925 than Noah had to believe that there would be a flood?

    Answer: ... There was never at any time any intimation to the Pilgrim brethren that they should cease talking about 1925... Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures, marking the end of the typical jubilees. Just exactly what will happen at that time no one can tell to a certainty; but we expect such a climax in the affairs of the world that the people will begin to realize the presence of the Lord and his kingdom power. He is already present, as we know, and has taken unto himself his power and begun his reign. He has come to his temple. He is dashing to pieces the nations. Every Christian ought to be content, then, to do with his might what his hands find to do, without stopping to quibble about what is going to happen on a certain date.

    As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had (so far as the Scriptures reveal) upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge.

    Since Noah's knowledge of a coming deluge came not from reading a book, but by direct inspiration from God, if now the Christian "has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had" in the coming of Armageddon in 1925, then it follows that the predictions for 1925 must have been inspired, because you cannot get more sure about a coming event than by being informed about it by inspiration. Therefore The Watch Tower here is indirectly claiming direct inspiration about the 1925 date.

    Here is another unequivocal example of a claim of direct inspiration: In the Olin Moyle court case of 1943, Fred Franz said under oath that no man is the editor of The Watchtower. Who, then, is the editor?

    Q. Who subsequently became the Editor of the magazine, the main editor of the "Watch Tower" magazine?

    A. In 1931, October 15th, as I recall, the "Watch Tower" discontinued publishing the names of any editorial committee on the second page.

    The Court. He asked you who became the editor.

    The Witness. And it said --

    The Court. Who became the editor?

    Q. Who became the editor when this was discontinued?

    A. Jehovah God.

    In case the reader should object that this was only Franz’s opinion and therefore of little weight, it should be noted that in 1943, Franz was for all practical purposes himself the editor of The Watchtower. He was in practical terms the head theologian of the Watchtower Society, and Nathan Knorr generally rubber stamped his writings. Governing Body member Karl Klein often called Franz the "oracle of the organization." When this "oracle" testified before a "worldly" court that Jehovah is the sole editor of The Watchtower, he did so in his capacity as an authoritative spokesman for the Watchtower Society, and so his pronouncements must be regarded as an official policy statement.

    Of course, a sole editor cannot be a mere figurehead. He must have direct input to the material edited. Thus Franz was claiming that no man -- not even he himself -- had the final say as to what appeared in The Watchtower, but only Jehovah God did. Thus Franz made a direct claim that The Watchtower is inspired in everything that appears in it.

    Finally we may consider some statements that appeared in the July 1, 1973 Watchtower on page 402:

    4 Consider, too, the fact that Jehovah's organization alone, in all the earth, is directed by God's holy spirit or active force. (Zech. 4:6)

    Note that the claim is not made that "Jehovah's organization" simply has men in it who read the Bible and come to a personal understanding and then communicate this to the rest of the organization, so that the "direction" is a passive thing already set down in the Bible. No indeed, the organization is actively and purposefully and right now "directed by God's holy spirit or active force." That is a direct claim of direct inspiration.

    Only this organization functions for Jehovah's purpose and to his praise. To it alone God's Sacred Word, the Bible, is not a sealed book. Many persons of the world are very intelligent, capable of understanding complex matters. They can read the Holy Scriptures, but they cannot understand their deep meaning. Yet God's people can comprehend such spiritual things. Why? Not because of special intelligence on their part, but as the apostle Paul declared: "For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God." (1 Cor. 2:10) Jesus Christ praised his heavenly Father for 'hiding such things from the wise and intellectual ones but revealing them to babes.' (Matt. 11:25) How very much true Christians appreciate associating with the only organization on earth that understands the "deep things of God"!

    Here we find plain statements that no one besides the leaders of Jehovah's Witnesses can understand the Bible. Why? Because holy spirit has revealed to them and them alone what the Bible means. Since the Bible is a static document set in stone by about 1600 years ago, the Watchtower statement certainly is not talking about a mere coming to a personal understanding of the Bible, but about understanding special things hidden in the Bible, not by one's own power of understanding, but by direct action of the holy spirit on the minds of JW leaders, where the holy spirit inserts the 'correct' understanding into the minds of these men. This is a direct claim of plenary inspiration, such that everything written in Watchtower publications is claimed to have God's stamp of approval and is inspired.

    5 Direction by God's spirit enables Jehovah's servants to have divine light in a world of spiritual darkness. (2 Cor. 4:4) For instance, long ago they understood that 1914 C.E. would mark the end of the Gentile Times or "appointed times of the nations," during which the Gentile nations were allowed uninterrupted rulership of the earth. (Luke 21:24) This 2,520-year period began with the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple by the Babylonians in the late seventh century B.C.E. For example, Zion's Watch Tower of March 1880 had declared: "'The Times of the Gentiles' extend to 1914, and the heavenly kingdom will not have full sway till then." Only God by his holy spirit could have revealed this to those early Bible students so far in advance.

    Here again we find an unequivocal claim of direct, divine inspiration. Only by God revealing this information about 1914 to C. T. Russell and company could they hope to understand the Bible. Indeed, there is no way they could have understood it on their own, but only by means of God's insertion into their minds of the correct understanding. And just as Rutherford stated in the book Preparation, this "revealing" was done by means of God's messengers, or angels, and so it is simply another way of claiming direct inspiration.

    Ironically, the above claim about 1914 has proved to be quite misleading. Various "apostate" publications, especially the 1983 version of Carl Jonsson's The Gentile Times Reconsidered, pointed out that Russell himself did not 'discover' the 1914 chronology. So in the 1993 Proclaimers book the Society was forced to admit that it was Nelson Barbour who actually originated this nonsensical set of ideas. So if the claims in the 1973 Watchtower are basically true, we must conclude that Nelson Barbour was actually the one to whom holy spirit revealed the wonderful truths about 1914.

    AlanF

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