IS THE WATCHTOWER A FALSE PROPHET? (page 9)

COMF

Hmm... no answer to my question. Worse yet, a nonsensical claim to have answered it.

Read: "I cannot address this matter honestly, for to do so would topple my house of cards."

COMF

JT

comf- says

Read: "I cannot address this matter honestly, for to do so would topple my house of cards."

COMF

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nice post- got to leave that ACE in there- house will fall

Why have you failed to put in what scripture you are quoting from, in your new testament quotes. Makes it hard to investigate what you are claiming.
Does not this scripture have to do with his second presence?
Do not the JW's fail to accept that Jesus will come in the flesh claiming he has already come invisibily?
Does it not say that every eye will see him in the same verse when he comes?

Yes you are right that the Apostles from the beginning began to break Jesus comand. Jesus message that Love was more important then the letter of the law. They went back to the vomit that the Jews were practicing, laying down laws to burden one another. Forming a group that now used money, in direct violation of what Jesus told them to do. Give your money to the poor.

So what if you are not "false prophets" because you are not prophets. Read your own history brother Russell did claim to be a phrophet! But that is still no reason to be following your blind leadership, who wishes to impose laws upon me and my family which Jesus would never support! Which stand in direct violation of his commands.

Jesus did not care what his apearance was to others, he hung out with prostitutes and lepers, and he had no use for the "righteous." He did not come to help the righteous, but to help those who were in need.

The Jews were the ones worried about being righteous, and later the Apostles returned to this crap, but Jesus had no such concerns!

Jesus would not turn away from anyone because they had a beard or sideburns....because they were not a JW....or because they were not baptised in the name of the Spirit led Org of JW's. And the Apostles certainly never baptized anyone in the name of thier man made Organizations.

D wiltshire

You Know you are totally cool!!!!

Everytime this thread is posted it's like a Banner gets flown.

IS THE WATCHTOWER A FALSE PROPHET?

What a good question for all Jehovah's Witness think about!

Again thank you YK.

If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?

hillary_step

YK Asks,

IS THE WATCHTOWER A FALSE PROPHET?

It seems that many of you are growing fretted and anxious at YK's sultry non-appearance on this thread. Fear not!

As YK's Public Relations officer for 2002, I would on behalf of his Prophetship, like to answer this very important question.

No, you spiritually fettered, unclean apostate dogs.

Or -

Yes, you spiritually fettered, unclean apostate dogs.

In a pained display of sacrificial generosity YK is allowing you all to have a choice of two answers to his one question.

However he does wish you all to be aware that whatever answer you choose, you are all still a bunch of pustular apostate bozo's.

Remember slitherers, in the land of the blind the one eyed Robert is King.

HS

PS - Anybody who takes YK seriously deserves all they get!

ladonna

YouKnow,

Please, please....for 2002, could you kindly flush your posts and give us a break for the year.

Take a holiday, take a break, take whatever, but pleeeaaaaaaase!!!!

FLUSH

Ana

unclebruce

Hey Ladonna, very nice,

at the risk of upsetting the squeamish and suicidal .. my country cousins had a little ceramic dunny on the mantlepiece, when one lifted the lid you'd see a little man disappear around the bend and the words "goodbye cruel world"

This is the first YK thread I've opened in about a year .. anyone who believes in prophets true, false or mediochre is a looser in my book and no one has less cred than YK ... even the watchtower men hedge thier bets.

spploooshhhh ..

607BCisAbigLIE

YouKnow,
Please, please....for 2002, could you kindly flush your posts and give us a break for the year.
Take a holiday, take a break, take whatever, but pleeeaaaaaaase!!!!

What a relief it should be!!! It only makes about 1 week that I post message on this DB and I already find YK a little annoying for those who want to heal from that Org. But sometimes it is fun to read his post, but after 5 min I'm already done, at least he should be a little less "enthousiastic" to call us apostates (that doesn't bother me, it's just that he refuse to look himself in the mirror). YK has no authority in such doing. Of course, YK has the right to post any idea he may have about the Bible, God, Jesus Christ or whatever, like as we do, even if we are not agreeing with his thoughs, but he could do it on a more polite way. For one who refuse to get critized on what he thinks, he have pretty much did it himself on others.

This is not what you say YouKnow, that is disturbing. It is the way you actually say it. Period.

607BCisAbigLIE

BTW, just not to be out of topic, yes I believe that the WT is a false prophet, cause everything the WT predicted has come to be false. And for the other part of being a prophet (true channel of God), a true prophet will ALWAYS speak according to God's Word, the Bible, and not according to a hypotetic channel (oh, BTW, is this what we call "channeling", considered by the WT as a esoteric way of spirits speaking through a man body?) between man and God. The WT, and more specificaly the GB, claims itself to be the channel of God. Yes I concede that they can do mistakes; however, it is really blasphemous when those mistakes are done under God's name. Giving false predictions, as it is well known now that they have done it in the past and continuing to this day, and thus saying that when there's a change in prophecy (and we all know that God's word never change) they have claimed to be the truth coming from God, to be "new light", that shows that the WT is a false prophet.

So YouKnow, i'm challenging you to provide us proof that the WT has made once in its relatively short life a single prediction that has come true, without any doubt. And don't talk to me about that 1914 crap, I already know the truth behind this.

You Know

A.F.

In the stereotypical fashion of defenders of Jehovah's Witnesses, You Know twists the Scriptures every which way in order to maintain the fiction that JW leaders have been appointed by God to speak in his name. Here we find yet another attempt by a JW defender to absolve JW leaders from their responsibility for having misled millions of people about issues they themselves declare are matters of life and death.

First, I have not twisted the Scriptures. If you think that I have then it's your responsibility to explain which ones I have twisted and what the correct understanding is, Otherwise you are just making a false unsubstantiated claim. Secondly, I have not sought to absolve JW leaders from responsibility. On the contrary, I have, on this thread, as well as on other occasions, pointed out, albeit not in great detail, how Jehovah will hold his servants accountable for their errors. The difference between our positions is that you point to Watchtower errors and jump to the conclusion that they can't possibly be God's chosen ones, while I am aware of our errors I am also aware of Jehovah's means to deal with such things.

You Know claims that certain scriptures define what a false prophet is. Several posters have pointed out his errors in using such a narrow and self-serving definition, but in true cowardly fashion he has not answered their arguments because he can't do it without making the JW organization look even more foolish.

Nonsense. It is quite in keeping with your own methods of argumentation that you would confuse mere ridicule for truth.

As these unanswered posters have pointed out, a Biblical "true prophet" is not limited to someone "that confesses Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh" and a Biblical "false prophet" is not limited to someone who says the opposite.

According to the Christian Greek definition of a false prophet it is limited to that. Although I also pointed out how Peter and Jude foretell that false prophets are predatory men who arise from within the true Christian organization. No one can successfully deny that the scriptural profile fits apostate Jehovah’s Witnesses perfectly.

According to the Watchtower Society itself, a "prophet" in the most general sense is anyone who claims to speak for God. Since that claim can be true or false, it is obvious that there can be true and false prophets.

That’s true. But that’s not the definition of a false prophet given at Deuteronomy, which is the text apostates use to make their accusation. There are different meanings for the word prophet, and the Watchtower appropriately is a prophet of sorts in that they are authorized to declare the message of God’s kingdom as found in the Bible. That’s entirely different from the sort of Old Testament prophet who spoke words directly for God. That’s the type of prophet that Deuteronomy is talking about. And since the nature of false prophets is to deceive others, their methods of deception are not always so obvious. That’s why the Christian writers help us to further identify how Satan’s operatives work now. And as I pointed out the criteria for recognizing the true and the false is different for Christians than it was for the Jews under the Law. That’s because no one is directly inspired by God to utter his words now as they were in Bible times.

Clearly then, anyone who says the equivalent of "these words are from God", but whose words prove to be merely their own understanding, is a false prophet. Such a false prophet is quite different from someone who says the equivalent of "here is my interpretation of the Bible and so I think that these words represent God's thoughts". The leaders of Jehovah's Witnesses have declared to the world that they and they alone speak for God to the world of mankind today. Indeed, they teach that in 1919 Jesus appointed them as his exclusive collective spokesman. Thus by their own mouth they stand condemned as false prophets, whenever any of their words spoken in God's name prove false.

Watch carefully, young children, and you will get an education. Here’s where the apostate’s legerdemain comes in, but if you observe closely it is possible to see how a skilled and clever deceiver adroitly uses the sleight of hand techniques in his operation. Did you see it. You have to be quick-eyed. Let’s slow it down here a little and play it again. Notice how the apostate cunningly redefines what a prophet is by inventing words to place in someone else’s mouth. Remember, the apostate uses counterfeit words, so you have to be on guard. Read again his statement “these words are from God” but whose words prove to be merely their own understanding, is a false prophet. Such a false prophet is quite different from someone who says the equivalent of "here is my interpretation of the Bible and so I think that these words represent God's thoughts". Such a false prophet is quite different from someone who says the equivalent of "here is my interpretation of the Bible and so I think that these words represent God's thoughts". Did you catch the subtle flick of the wrist? If not read the statement again until it becomes clear. A.F. is basically saying that it’s okay to offer an inadequate interpretation of the Bible as long as one doesn’t say it authoritatively. This is of course a nonsensical statement. And, most importantly doesn’t even fit the Old Testament criteria for identifying a false prophet. Keep that in mind as we go to his next statement.

The leaders of Jehovah's Witnesses have declared to the world that they and they alone speak for God to the world of mankind today. Indeed, they teach that in 1919 Jesus appointed them as his exclusive collective spokesman. Thus by their own mouth they stand condemned as false prophets, whenever any of their words spoken in God's name prove false.

Here again A.F. runs far afield in his redefining what a false prophet is. Remember now, the Law of Dueteronomy gave the Jews a simple means for ferreting out a false prophet. If his words didn’t come true than that meant that Jehovah didn’t speak them. That criteria can no longer hold true in the Christian era for the simple fact that God speaks to no one. And so any claimant of divine inspiration is automatically disqualified. The words of God as recorded in the Bible are the sole basis for our message and they cannot and will not fail. However, A.F. would have you confuse divine inspiration with divine authority. They are two separate things. It is different in the Christian organization for the reason that Christ assigned his followers to be his spokesmen and ambassadors to the world. That means Jesus gave AUTHORITY to his followers to speak and teach in his name and in the name of his Father. That’s the position that Jehovah’s Witnesses claim. No one claims to be inspired to speak words from God such as the Hebrew prophets of old. That’s totally unnecessary. The Bible is our only source of inspiration. As Revelation says: “The bearing witness to Jesus is what inspire prophesying.” That so-called prophesying doesn’t mean we are inspired to speak fresh words from God’s mouth, but that we preach about the many prophecies that pertain to all aspects of Jehovah’s purpose in Christ. So, while the Watchtower has authority over God’s household, that doesn’t mean that they are inspired to unerringly interpret the Bible. If that were true why does the very prophecy that authorizes a faithful slave also call for his punishment for his failures?

We all know of dozens of instances where JW leaders have spoken falsehood in God's name. Lying defenders like You Know would have us believe that these things were not spoken in God's name, but this lie is so transparent that it needs no further comment.

Here again, I remind the reader that A.F. is merely inventing a new meaning of what a prophet is. Whether individuals have lied to defend their religion is hardly what is at issue here. It is not even worth discussing whether you think you have caught some guy lying. That is totally irrelevant to this topic and you know it. The apostates claim is that the Watchtower fits the description of a false prophet as outlined in the book of Deuteronomy. That’s the issue. That has nothing to do with the personal honesty of any individual. In the Bible Peter denied that he even knew Jesus. That was of course a grievous sin that he deeply regretted. But, did that make him a false prophet? Jesus evidently didn’t think so as he appointed Peter to be his spokesmen for the entire congregation.

Such defenders would also like to narrow down the definition of "false prophet" so as to exclude JW leaders, but again that is not possible, given the Bible's definitions.

I used the definition that Ray Franz and his followers have used as found at Deuteronomy. And according to that narrow definiton the Watchtower is not a false prophet. Neither are they a false prophet according to the New Testaments’ definition either. Perhaps according to YOUR defintion they are. But that’s not any of my concern, except to point out its absurdity.

A very clear description of one sort of false prophet is given in Luke 21:5-8, where the true Christian is told to avoid him: "Teacher, when will these things actually be, and what will be the sign when these things are destined to occur?" He said: "Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, 'I am he,' and, 'The due time has approached.' Do not go after them." Jesus was speaking about the time of his parousia (cf. Matthew 24:1-5) or return.

I have advised you on numerous occasions that you shouldn’t try to interpret the Bible. You are not qualified and simply do not know what you are talking about. Or as Paul said: “Not perceiving either the things they are saying or the things about which they are making strong assertions.”

First off, as I have pointed out many times, having false expectations, and even voicing those expectations, does not make one a false prophet. The apostles had numerous unrealistic and unscriptural notions, but obviously that didn’t disqualify them from serving as Christ’s spokesmen. Secondly, there are two aspects as regards the doctrine of the so-called parousia. There is a beginning and there is a conclusion to his presence when this system ends. It is up to the discerning reader to understand which is which. In the verse you cited above, the false christs makes the claim that ‘I am he,’ and, ‘the due time has approached.’ Jesus clearly warned his followers that there would be those claiming to be the Christ and by that authority that the “due time has approached.” At no time have any of Jehovah’s Witnesses or their Governing Body ever claimed to be Christ. So that prophecy does not refer to us. Period.

However, there is an obvious paradox here that must be solved. If Jesus wanted his followers to recognize the sign of his presence and to preach the message that God’s kingdom was near then why would he say not to follow those who were saying that the ‘due time has approached’ since the very existence of such false messiahs would indicate that the time had in fact approached? The answer is in the timing. According to Matthew’s account Jesus gave a more detailed warning about false prophets and false christ’s and when they would appear. True, Matthew’s account records that Jesus also warned that false prophets would appear before and during the entire interval of his presence, but, the most dangerous period for Jesus’ followers would be during the period of the tribulation. Luke’s account doesn’t really specify the time when such ones would arise but Matthew’s account definitely situates the arrival of the false christs during the tribulation period, which of course is yet future. That’s when many would arise claiming to be the Christ and saying that the time had arrived, for whatever they were leading people to believe was going to happen.

Jesus specifically warned that the deception would be so masterful that if it were possible that even his own chosen ones would be taken in by the deception. Jesus merely instructed his followers to categorically reject all such claimants for the simple reason that the real Jesus was not coming back physically. The point is, that those whom Jesus foretold would appear saying: “I am he,’ and, ‘the due time has approached.” would arise at a point during the tribulation. Therefore, we can say with certainty that Jesus was not talking about the true sons of the kingdom whom he dispatched to declare that God’s kingdom was near as evidenced by the signs.

He told his disciples to watch out for things that could mislead them. One such thing would be persons who "come on the basis of" Jesus' name, i.e., not necessarily claiming to be Jesus himself (otherwise they could not come on the basis of the name of him who has already come) but claiming to speak in Jesus' name and invoking the spiritual authority that such would confer upon them. Such a claim is the very basis for the claims of authority of the leaders of Jehovah's Witnesses. Indeed, their most cherished doctrine is that they and they alone speak in the names of Jehovah and Jesus today.

Indeed, the doctrinal basis for the Watchtower’s authority is found later on in that prophecy where Jesus foretold the appointment of a faithful slave to oversee his household. So, it is a lie that Jesus has no one on earth during his parousia that he has authorized to speak for him. The evil slave better fits the description of a false prophet due to the fact that he too has a position of authority and uses his insider position to mislead others. Judging by the power that charlatans like Ray Franz, and others, have over apostate JWs, it is evident that that’s the case.

JW leaders also now falsely teach that Christ's parousia occurred in 1914, and that all sorts of world events prove them right. However, a careful look at the history of this Watchtower teaching proves that almost everything they've taught about it is unscriptural and unhistorical, and even that much of what they have taught has been based on deliberately selective or even falsified information and false arguments. Clearly, anyone who truly speaks in God's name has no need of lies. Based on the above, are the leaders of Jehovah's Witnesses false prophets in the Biblical sense. Obviously, yes.

Nonsense. The teaching stands up to all the facts of history.

Another proof is the way JW leaders have treated their brothers who disagree with them on certain doctrines. A person who simply offers his opinion about a biblical interpretation cannot logically declare that someone with a different opinion is wicked simply because their opinions differ.

This is more nonsense. Here, the apostate would have us believe that if God’s spokesmen are not divinely inspired to utter infallible words from God that they are offering mere opinion. In actuality, that is merely the poisoned opinion of an apostate. In reality, the faithful slave has divine authority over God’s household of believers to say what is to be taught as sound doctrine and what is not. That doesn’t mean they are unerring, but it does men that they have authority over God’s people.

But a person who equates his own opinion with God's opinion can logically do so, since the biblical notion of "wicked" is "anything that goes against God's opinion". The conduct of JW leaders, in instituting the formal arrangement of disfellowshipping and disassociation, proves that they hold that their opinions are equal to God's.

People are disfellowshipped who cause dissension and do not recognize the authority of the faithful slave. It is entirely Scriptural to remove such persons from God’s household who would set stumbling blocks before their brothers as they are not fit to remain and represent the organization as ministers of Christ.

They declare that anyone who publicly disagrees with their opinions is also disagreeing with God, and therefore is an apostate.

That’s because they blaspheme God by denouncing those whom God appointed over his household. Remember, Satan’s criteria for God’s servants and Jehovah’s are two different things entirely. Satan is the Accuser who accuses us night and day before God. Jehovah is not nearly so harsh in his judgments. And those two points of view are reflected in the contrast between faithful witnesses and apostate dubs. The bottom line is, that just because the faithful slave may err or misinterpret some prophecies, of have premature expectations, does not mean that he does not have an appointment over God’s household. That is pure apostate bull manure.

When such persons are Jehovah's Witnesses, JW leaders cause them to be declared wicked by means of being declared disfellowshipped or disassociated, and such persons are then formally shunned by the entire JW community.

And rightly so.

The Watchtower Society has caused many, many "righteous ones" to be shunned for "apostasy" when their only real "sin" was to publicly disagree with demonstrably false JW teachings.

Any brother who deliberately seeks to undermine the trust of Jehovah’s Witnesses in their leadership is wicked and has no place in God’s household of faithful ministers.

It is ironic how well Jesus' words about 'out of your own mouth you will be condemned' apply to the excuses of JW apologists like You Know:

Jesus hasn’t condemned us. Apostates are the accusers and those who falsely judge and condemn their former brothers by twisting God’s word to suit their own ends. You are merely passing off your own jaundiced opinions as if they were the Judgments of God. By all accounts you, and all apostates, are unspiritual and animalistic men who seek to separate Jehovah’s Witnesses from their leadership, wreck their faith, and exploit them for your own wicked purpose. According to the apostles’ description that makes you and your ilk the real false prophets and deceivers of the mind. / You Know

IS THE WATCHTOWER A FALSE PROPHET?

COMF

JT

libra_spirit

D wiltshire

hillary_step

ladonna

unclebruce

607BCisAbigLIE

607BCisAbigLIE

You Know

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