IS THE WATCHTOWER A FALSE PROPHET?

by You Know 207 Replies latest watchtower bible

WildHorses

It's false I tell ya............FALSE The Watchtower is a FALSE Prophet.

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent
Eleanor Roosevelt
You Know

That makes the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society a prophet. They claim to speak by divine inspiration.
That is a lie and you know it. I challenge you to produce one Watchtower article that claims such a thing. / You Know
OUTLAW

Hey JT,HAPPY NEW YEAR...OUTLAW>>>Hey You Know,The dubs looked to 1975 because they were told to by WBTS.It had no basis in bible chronology,thats why it never happened,you dumb-ass bullshit artist.There was no misunderstanding,it was a lie to keep everyone scared,just like their new lies(new light)for the end of the world.You just keep peddling your sorry ass for the great whore,I hear she`s running low on cash.(LOL)In the mean time keep posting,your the best anti-dub advertisement we`ve got..LOL...OUTLAW
AlanF

I'd like for anyone who manages to slog through these posts to note how very much like Watchtower writings You Know's posts are. They contain misdirections, half truths and outright lies. Direct statements from critics are often ignored, and strawmen are constantly set up and knocked down.
: A.F.
That's "AlanF" to you, buddy.
:: In the stereotypical fashion of defenders of Jehovah's Witnesses, You Know twists the Scriptures every which way in order to maintain the fiction that JW leaders have been appointed by God to speak in his name. Here we find yet another attempt by a JW defender to absolve JW leaders from their responsibility for having misled millions of people about issues they themselves declare are matters of life and death.
: First, I have not twisted the Scriptures. If you think that I have then it's your responsibility to explain which ones I have twisted and what the correct understanding is, Otherwise you are just making a false unsubstantiated claim.
I did that in paragraphs 2 and 3 of the very post you're replying to. (Note to the reader: here is a good example of an outright lie by YK) I pointed out that your "scriptural" definition of a biblical "false prophet" is only one aspect of what constitutes a false prophet. Since you already know these things, your deliberate narrowing of the definition is twisting the scriptures.
Your claim here is an example of the lies you tell, because you immediately go on to attempt to show why the very reasoning that demolishes your position is false. Thus you first claim, "AlanF never tried to prove his case" and then you go on to try to disprove the very case you claim I never attempted to present, even quoting my words that present my case.
: Secondly, I have not sought to absolve JW leaders from responsibility.
Of course you have. According to the Bible, false prophets are condemned and no one should listen to them. Yet you continue beating the drum that the false prophets who lead the community of Jehovah's Witnesses should be listened to simply because you think that God appointed them. But the Bible says, "Do not go after them."
: On the contrary, I have, on this thread, as well as on other occasions, pointed out, albeit not in great detail, how Jehovah will hold his servants accountable for their errors.
Indeed, but you nevertheless advocate that true Christians should follow false prophets.
: The difference between our positions is that you point to Watchtower errors and jump to the conclusion that they can't possibly be God's chosen ones, while I am aware of our errors I am also aware of Jehovah's means to deal with such things.
I make that conclusion, true, but it is no jumping to a conclusion. My position is scriptural, while yours is a product of twisted JW reasoning, which says that false prophets should be followed no matter what they do.
:: You Know claims that certain scriptures define what a false prophet is. Several posters have pointed out his errors in using such a narrow and self-serving definition, but in true cowardly fashion he has not answered their arguments because he can't do it without making the JW organization look even more foolish.
: Nonsense. It is quite in keeping with your own methods of argumentation that you would confuse mere ridicule for truth.
YK's reply here is a good example of what people who write in to the Society term "a reply not an answer". After my above quoted statement I showed what other posters said. YK below goes on to try to explain away what those other posters said, and so his claim about "mere ridicule" is blown away by the fact that he now responds to "mere ridicule".
:: As these unanswered posters have pointed out, a Biblical "true prophet" is not limited to someone "that confesses Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh" and a Biblical "false prophet" is not limited to someone who says the opposite.
: According to the Christian Greek definition of a false prophet it is limited to that.
The reader will note the simple blanket denial. No explanation, no attempt at giving reasons why. Typical of JW defenders when they have no real arguments.
Later we will see why YK's reference to 1 John 4:2, 3 is so self-serving, because he ignores what the rest of the New Testament says about prophets in Christian times.
: Although I also pointed out how Peter and Jude foretell that false prophets are predatory men who arise from within the true Christian organization. No one can successfully deny that the scriptural profile fits apostate Jehovah’s Witnesses perfectly.
Irrelevant to the biblical definition of "false prophet".
:: According to the Watchtower Society itself, a "prophet" in the most general sense is anyone who claims to speak for God. Since that claim can be true or false, it is obvious that there can be true and false prophets.
: That’s true.
Oops. You've blown away your above claim that the New Testament definition only includes those who don't 'confess Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh'.
Now comes another misdirection and lie:
: But that’s not the definition of a false prophet given at Deuteronomy, which is the text apostates use to make their accusation.
Correction: that is one of the definitions that critics use to prove that JW leaders are false prophets. Let's analyze the text for the principles contained, and we will find that these principles are unarguable and independent of the fact that they're given as part of the Mosaic Law in the Old Testament. In the New World Translation the text of Deuteronomy 18:20-22 reads:
20 "'However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. 21 And in case you should say in your heart: "How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?" 22 when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.
Note that the passage gives no definition of "prophet", and so it assumes that the reader already knows what a "prophet" is. We've already agreed that according to the Bible itself, and as I said and you agreed, "According to the Watchtower Society itself, a 'prophet' in the most general sense is anyone who claims to speak for God." That definition is fundamental, and it includes the type of prophet who predicts the future as well as another type of prophet who is a leader or teacher of a group claiming to be "God's people". Here is a longer discussion based on one of my earlier essays:
What is prophecy and what is a prophet? The Watchtower Society has published clear definitions. A "prophecy", according to Vol 2. of Insight on the Scriptures, pages 690-1, is:
An inspired message; a revelation of divine will and purpose or the proclamation thereof. Prophecy may be an inspired moral teaching, an expression of a divine command or judgment, or a declaration of something to come. As shown under PROPHET, prediction, or foretelling, is not the basic thought conveyed by the root verbs in the original languages.... yet it forms an outstanding feature of Bible prophecy.... The Source of all true prophecy is Jehovah God.
It should be noted that a prophecy can be originated by men or even be inspired by demons, according to the Bible. A true prophet, according to Vol 2. of Insight on the Scriptures, page 694, is:
One through whom divine will and purpose are made known.
Note that these definitions do not require a prophet to claim inspiration. Someone who is a false prophet is certainly not inspired, but he is still a prophet. He is the object of condemnation of Deuteronomy 18. The key points are: (1) anyone claiming to speak for God is a prophet, and (2) such a prophet can be true or false. Claiming that a false prophet is not ‘really’ a prophet is equivalent to claiming there is no such thing as a false prophet, contrary to what Jehovah himself says. Insight also explains how a true prophet can be distinguished from a false one:
The three essentials for establishing the credentials of a true prophet, as given through Moses, were: The true prophet would speak in Jehovah’s name; the things foretold would come to pass (De 18:20-22); and his prophesying must promote true worship, being in harmony with God’s revealed word and commandments (De 13:1-4).
So there are three tests a true prophet must pass. Failure to pass even one makes him a false prophet. In summary, if someone claims to be a prophet, i.e., to speak for God, but his words are not in harmony with the Bible, or if he makes predictions in God’s name and his predictions fail, then he is a false prophet. It’s really a rather simple concept, wouldn’t you say?
So, while Deuteronomy 18 describes certain principles that allow someone to distinguish between a true prophet and a false one, these principles are so universal that they obviously apply to anyone and everyone who claims to speak in God's name, no matter when.
One of the best descriptions of these ideas is found in the May 15, 1930 Watch Tower, pages 153-5, which describes the true prophet and the false prophet:
A prophet is a person who professes to proclaim a message from Jehovah God. The Bible reveals the fact that there are both true and false prophets. The true prophet is one who always speaks as God’s mouthpiece. His message is the truth, and is designed to be a blessing to his hearers. He is never boastful, and always gives God the credit for the message which he proclaims, and therefore always has the divine approval. A false prophet is a person who claims to be a representative of Jehovah and to speak in his name and to proclaim his message but is in fact the mouthpiece of Satan. A false prophet never has Jehovah’s approval, and his message is always intended to deceive the people and to draw them away from God and a study of his Word.
A false prophet speaks that which is contrary to God’s will; he sneers at, contradicts and denies the message of God’s true prophets. It matters not whether he proclaims his message with deliberate, willful and malicious intent to deceive, or whether he is the blinded and deluded dupe of Satan and hence unwittingly used of him. In either case he is a false prophet...
Since the Bible was completed, and "inspiration" is no longer necessary, a true prophet is one who is faithfully proclaiming what is written in the Bible... But it may be asked, How are we to know whether one is a true or a false prophet? There are at least three ways by which we can positively decide: (1) If he is a true prophet, his message will come to pass exactly as prophesied. If he is a false prophet, his prophecy will fail to come to pass... The difference between a true and a false prophet is that the one is speaking the word of the Lord and the other is speaking his own dreams and guesses... The true prophet of God today will be telling forth what the Bible teaches, and those things that the Bible tells us are soon to come to pass. He will not be sounding forth man-made theories or guesses, either his own or those of others... In the New Testament, and in our day, the word "prophet" has a thought similar to that of our word "teacher," in the sense of a public expounder. Hence when the term "false prophet" is used, we shall get the correct thought if we think of a false teacher.
So The Watch Tower said that if anyone claims to represent God and speak in his name and proclaim his message and the prophecies fail, he is a false prophet. He will only have been sounding forth man-made theories or guesses. Conversely, anyone who sounds forth man-made theories or guesses in God’s name is a false teacher and therefore a false prophet.
Note this clearly: The Watch Tower pointedly said that "inspiration is no longer necessary." Therefore, according to the Society, inspiration -- or the claim of inspiration -- is not a criterion for determining if one who claims to be a prophet is a true one or a false one. Therefore, a prophet is anyone who claims to speak in God’s name.
Awake!, October 8, 1968, on page 23, in speaking about the Society’s contention that the Bible indicates we are living in the last days, emphasized that those who falsely predicted the end of the world were false prophets:
Still some persons may say: "How can you be sure? Maybe it is later than many people think. But maybe it is not as late as some persons claim. People have been mistaken about these prophecies before.".... True, there have been those in times past who predicted an "end to the world," even announcing a specific date... Yet, nothing happened. The "end" did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing?
Compare these statements with those above from the May 15, 1930 Watch Tower, and then compare them with the Society's predictions of Armageddon in 1914, 1925 and 1975. Especially note that the 1968 Awake! said those who predicted an end to the world, even announcing a specific date, and whose predictions failed, were false prophets by virtue of their false predictions. The 1968 Awake! continued:
Missing was the full measure of evidence required in fulfillment of Bible prophecy. Missing from such people were God’s truths and the evidence that he was guiding and using them.
So the fact that the predictions failed was proof that God was not guiding or using them. So it is with Watchtower leaders today. They speak in God's name but not a single significant prediction they've made in God's name has come true. Thus these men are false prophets, both by biblical standards and by their own.
: There are different meanings for the word prophet, and the Watchtower appropriately is a prophet of sorts
That's correct, and by their own mouth. Here are a few examples where the Society explicitly calls itself a prophet:
Whom has God actually used as his prophet?... Jehovah’s witnesses. -- The Watchtower, January 15, 1959, pp. 40-1.
As Jehovah revealed his truths by means of the first-century Christian congregation so he does today by means of the present-day Christian congregation. Through this agency he is having carried out prophesying on an intensified and unparalleled scale. -- The Watchtower, June 15, 1964, p. 365.
There is a real need today for someone to speak as a true representative of God... was there any group on whom Jehovah would be willing to bestow the commission to speak as a "prophet" in His name, as was done toward Ezekiel...? It is of importance to every individual on earth to identify the group that Jehovah has commissioned as his "servant" or messenger. -- The Watchtower, March 15, 1972, pp. 186, 189, 190.
: in that they are authorized to declare the message of God’s kingdom as found in the Bible.
"They are authorized"? By who? Certainly not by God, because their many false teachings and predictions prove that what they teach is often not from God. So it is they themselves who "authorize" themselves to do whatever they please.
: That’s entirely different from the sort of Old Testament prophet who spoke words directly for God. That’s the type of prophet that Deuteronomy is talking about.
As discussed above, Deuteronomy states that anyone who claims to speak for God, and who makes false predictions in God's name, is a false prophet. Period. This principle is completely general and really has nothing to do with Deuteronomy. The leaders of Jehovah's Witnesses are collectively described by that principle, and so they collectively comprise a false prophet. No getting away from it.
: And since the nature of false prophets is to deceive others, their methods of deception are not always so obvious.
True. That's why people like you believe that obvious false prophets are not what everyone else sees them as.
: That’s why the Christian writers help us to further identify how Satan’s operatives work now. And as I pointed out the criteria for recognizing the true and the false is different for Christians than it was for the Jews under the Law. That’s because no one is directly inspired by God to utter his words now as they were in Bible times.
You're making the obvious error pointed out by my above discussion: a person does not have to claim direct inspiration in order to claim to speak for God, or to be a false prophet. All that a person has to do to claim to speak for God is to say so outright -- which JW leaders do -- or to act as if their interpretations and opinions are infallible -- which JW leaders do. Any number of quotations from Watchtower literature can prove this, but this statement from the June 15, 1957 Watchtower (p. 370) will do:
It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the "slave" as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision.
:: Clearly then, anyone who says the equivalent of "these words are from God", but whose words prove to be merely their own understanding, is a false prophet. Such a false prophet is quite different from someone who says the equivalent of "here is my interpretation of the Bible and so I think that these words represent God's thoughts". The leaders of Jehovah's Witnesses have declared to the world that they and they alone speak for God to the world of mankind today. Indeed, they teach that in 1919 Jesus appointed them as his exclusive collective spokesman. Thus by their own mouth they stand condemned as false prophets, whenever any of their words spoken in God's name prove false.
: Watch carefully, young children, and you will get an education. Here’s where the apostate’s legerdemain comes in, but if you observe closely it is possible to see how a skilled and clever deceiver adroitly uses the sleight of hand techniques in his operation. Did you see it. You have to be quick-eyed. Let’s slow it down here a little and play it again.
Translation: "I will now attempt to pull the wool over my own eyes, and hopefully, yours too."
: Notice how the apostate cunningly redefines what a prophet is
We have seen who cunningly attempts to redefine what a prophet is.
: by inventing words to place in someone else’s mouth.
Ah, let's see now. I speak of those who say the equivalent of "these words are from God". That's rather clear. The Watchtower Society says, as quoted above:
There is a real need today for someone to speak as a true representative of God... was there any group on whom Jehovah would be willing to bestow the commission to speak as a "prophet" in His name, as was done toward Ezekiel...? It is of importance to every individual on earth to identify the group that Jehovah has commissioned as his "servant" or messenger. -- The Watchtower, March 15, 1972, pp. 186, 189, 190.
Is it not evident that You Know is attempting to do exactly what the Society said? I.e.: "False prophets will try to hide their reason for feeling shame by denying who they really are."
: Remember, the apostate uses counterfeit words, so you have to be on guard. Read again his statement "these words are from God" but whose words prove to be merely their own understanding, is a false prophet. Such a false prophet is quite different from someone who says the equivalent of "here is my interpretation of the Bible and so I think that these words represent God's thoughts". Such a false prophet is quite different from someone who says the equivalent of "here is my interpretation of the Bible and so I think that these words represent God's thoughts". Did you catch the subtle flick of the wrist? If not read the statement again until it becomes clear. A.F. is basically saying that it’s okay to offer an inadequate interpretation of the Bible as long as one doesn’t say it authoritatively.
That's not what I said at all. You're a master at twisting words, but it's easy enough to untwist them. What I said is that someone who offers an inadequate intepretation of the Bible based on his admitted own ideas is different from someone who claims that his ideas are identical to God's.
: This is of course a nonsensical statement.
Twisted statements usually are.
: And, most importantly doesn’t even fit the Old Testament criteria for identifying a false prophet. Keep that in mind as we go to his next statement.
As we've seen above, You Know is trying mightily to excuse himself and his masters for their many false prophecies made in God's name.
:: The leaders of Jehovah's Witnesses have declared to the world that they and they alone speak for God to the world of mankind today. Indeed, they teach that in 1919 Jesus appointed them as his exclusive collective spokesman. Thus by their own mouth they stand condemned as false prophets, whenever any of their words spoken in God's name prove false.
: Here again A.F. runs far afield in his redefining what a false prophet is.
"Hence when the term 'false prophet' is used, we shall get the correct thought if we think of a false teacher." -- May 15, 1930 Watch Tower
: Remember now, the Law of Dueteronomy gave the Jews a simple means for ferreting out a false prophet. If his words didn’t come true than that meant that Jehovah didn’t speak them.
True. But the reader will note You Know's bait and switch technique:
: That criteria can no longer hold true in the Christian era for the simple fact that God speaks to no one.
Here YK ignores the simple fact that the criteria presented in Deuteronomy are completely general, and that they mention nothing of a claim of inspiration. They mention only a claim to speak in God's name. Whether the claimant directly claims inspiration, or indirectly implies it by claiming that his words infallibly represent the words of God, the criteria apply.
: And so any claimant of divine inspiration is automatically disqualified.
Correction: any claimant of direct divine inspiration is automatically disqualified.
Next we find You Know attempting to justify why all true Christians ought to blindly obey the leaders of Jehovah's Witnesses no matter what manner of evil they instruct one to do or to believe:
: The words of God as recorded in the Bible are the sole basis for our message and they cannot and will not fail. However, A.F. would have you confuse divine inspiration with divine authority. They are two separate things. It is different in the Christian organization for the reason that Christ assigned his followers to be his spokesmen and ambassadors to the world. That means Jesus gave AUTHORITY to his followers to speak and teach in his name and in the name of his Father. That’s the position that Jehovah’s Witnesses claim. No one claims to be inspired to speak words from God such as the Hebrew prophets of old. That’s totally unnecessary. The Bible is our only source of inspiration. As Revelation says: "The bearing witness to Jesus is what inspire prophesying." That so-called prophesying doesn’t mean we are inspired to speak fresh words from God’s mouth, but that we preach about the many prophecies that pertain to all aspects of Jehovah’s purpose in Christ. So, while the Watchtower has authority over God’s household, that doesn’t mean that they are inspired to unerringly interpret the Bible. If that were true why does the very prophecy that authorizes a faithful slave also call for his punishment for his failures?
What all this nonsense leaves out is any justification for why demonstrated false prophets ought to be given any credence as having been appointed to a position of authority by Jesus. We certainly have no miraculous indications that JW leaders have been so appointed. We have no acts by them that so demonstrate. All we have is their word -- the word of demonstrated false prophets.
:: We all know of dozens of instances where JW leaders have spoken falsehood in God's name. Lying defenders like You Know would have us believe that these things were not spoken in God's name, but this lie is so transparent that it needs no further comment.
: Here again, I remind the reader that A.F. is merely inventing a new meaning of what a prophet is.
Not at all. In the above statement I mentioned nothing about "prophet". I spoke of those who claim to speak in God's name.
: Whether individuals have lied to defend their religion is hardly what is at issue here.
On the contrary -- it is central to the issue. The God of truth would never appoint liars to speak in his name, nor would he tolerate lies on the part of anyone he might have chosen. The Bible is full of stories that prove this.
Of course, we're not talking about Bible characters who made honest mistakes. We're talking about people who deliberately and knowingly told lies in the same manner as JW leaders have done and still do.
We have a simple, scripturally justifiable criterion: someone who claims to speak in God's name but is a demonstrated liar is a false prophet.
: It is not even worth discussing whether you think you have caught some guy lying. That is totally irrelevant to this topic and you know it. The apostates claim is that the Watchtower fits the description of a false prophet as outlined in the book of Deuteronomy. That’s the issue. That has nothing to do with the personal honesty of any individual. In the Bible Peter denied that he even knew Jesus. That was of course a grievous sin that he deeply regretted. But, did that make him a false prophet? Jesus evidently didn’t think so as he appointed Peter to be his spokesmen for the entire congregation.
Peter made a mistake and when his lie was pointed out to him by circumstances, he repented and he changed. We find no place in Scripture thereafter where he is described as telling outright lies. We find him continuing to make mistakes, as in supporting the Pharisaic notion that Christians had to get circumcised, but he was quickly corrected and he responded.
Is that what we find JW leaders doing? Far from it! Only when adverse publicity or unarguable events put them in an untenable situation do they change. They demonstrably do not respond to reasoned criticism. Why? Because they claim that they have authority and how dare anyone else offer criticism? In the meantime they throw out on the street any who dare to offer criticism and persist in it.
We have literally hundreds of examples to prove how intransigent JW leaders are. There is no need to list any of them here.
:: Such defenders would also like to narrow down the definition of "false prophet" so as to exclude JW leaders, but again that is not possible, given the Bible's definitions.
: I used the definition that Ray Franz and his followers have used as found at Deuteronomy. And according to that narrow definiton the Watchtower is not a false prophet.
Indeed they are, because the definition is so simple: Anyone who claims to speak in God's name and tells lies or makes false predictions in God's name is a false prophet.
: Neither are they a false prophet according to the New Testaments’ definition either. Perhaps according to YOUR defintion they are. But that’s not any of my concern, except to point out its absurdity.
Your definition is self-servingly narrow. It's not even sensible. If everyone "that confesses Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh" is a true prophet, and everyone who does not so confess is a false prophet, then all true Christians are true prophets and all false Christians and non-Christians are false prophets. The notion is entirely meaningless. It is actually contradicted by scripture. First let's note what 1 John 4:1-6 actually says, from the NWT:
*** Rbi8 1 John 4:1-6 ***
4 Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.
2 YOU gain the knowledge of the inspired expression from God by this: Every inspired expression that confesses Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh originates with God, 3 but every inspired expression that does not confess Jesus does not originate with God. Furthermore, this is the antichrist's [inspired expression] which YOU have heard was coming, and now it is already in the world.
4 YOU originate with God, little children, and YOU have conquered those [persons], because he that is in union with YOU is greater than he that is in union with the world. 5 They originate with the world; that is why they speak [what proceeds] from the world and the world listens to them. 6 We originate with God. He that gains the knowledge of God listens to us; he that does not originate with God does not listen to us. This is how we take note of the inspired expression of truth and the inspired expression of error.
The term "inspired expression" comes from the Greek pneuma which has a wide variety of meanings. In context, and according to a number of Bible commentaries, in this passage it means not just "inspired expression from God or demons", but any kind of "spirit" or motivating force that claims to be truly inspired by God. The context also shows that the passage is in no way an attempt to define what true and false prophets are, but is a description of what one kind of false teaching is, namely, a denial that Christ came in the flesh. This is because true Christian teaching comprises far more than just a confession about Christ coming in the flesh.
According to You Know, the only criterion for judging whether a claimed prophet is true or false is whether the person confesses "Christ as having come in the flesh". So according to him, anyone who makes that confession is a "true prophet". According to 1 John, this confession is a fundamental Christian teaching, and so every Christian must subscribe to it. Therefore, according to YK, every true Christian is also a true prophet.
But that is not what the Bible teaches. According to the New Testament, only some Christians are prophets:
*** Rbi8 Ephesians 4:11 ***
And he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers.
*** Rbi8 Romans 12:5-7 ***
Since, then, we have gifts differing according to the undeserved kindness given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the faith proportioned [to us]; or a ministry, [let us be] at this ministry; or he that teaches, [let him be] at his teaching.
*** Rbi8 1 Corinthians 12:7-11 ***
7 But the manifestation of the spirit is given to each one for a beneficial purpose. 8 For example, to one there is given through the spirit speech of wisdom, to another speech of knowledge according to the same spirit, 9 to another faith by the same spirit, to another gifts of healings by that one spirit, 10 to yet another operations of powerful works, to another prophesying, to another discernment of inspired utterances, to another different tongues, and to another interpretation of tongues. 11 But all these operations the one and the same spirit performs, making a distribution to each one respectively just as it wills.
Thus it is obvious that You Know's criterion is simply made up for the purpose of excusing himself and JW leaders from responsibility for making false predictions in God's name. This becomes even more obvious when we examine what Jesus told certain powerful claimants to a position of authority in his "household":
*** Rbi8 Matthew 7:21-23 ***
21 "Not everyone saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?' 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.
Jesus didn't deny that these lawless ones prophesied in his name, or expelled demons, or performed powerful works in his name. So they must have confessed that Jesus came in the flesh, and, according to You Know's criterion, they must have been true prophets. But Jesus condemns them anyway. Why? Obviously because YK's criterion is not sufficient to determine everything that makes one unfaithful to Jesus or a false prophet. Above, we have considered what things make one a false prophet, and so the dismantling of You Know's house of excuses is complete.
:: A very clear description of one sort of false prophet is given in Luke 21:5-8, where the true Christian is told to avoid him: "Teacher, when will these things actually be, and what will be the sign when these things are destined to occur?" He said: "Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, 'I am he,' and, 'The due time has approached.' Do not go after them." Jesus was speaking about the time of his parousia (cf. Matthew 24:1-5) or return.
: I have advised you on numerous occasions that you shouldn’t try to interpret the Bible.
Indeed you have, but I ignore advice from false prophets.
: You are not qualified and simply do not know what you are talking about. Or as Paul said: "Not perceiving either the things they are saying or the things about which they are making strong assertions."
More irrelevant rantings from the King of Ranters.
: First off, as I have pointed out many times, having false expectations, and even voicing those expectations, does not make one a false prophet.
That's right, and that's exactly what I said in my first post -- as you pointed out above. But the point is not about holding or voicing false expectations, but about teaching others to hold and voice one's own false expectations, and enforcing those teachings by the practice of disfellowshipping and declaring wicked those who don't go along. The point is about claiming that one's false expectations are from God.
: The apostles had numerous unrealistic and unscriptural notions, but obviously that didn’t disqualify them from serving as Christ’s spokesmen.
Right, because they didn't teach them to others and claim that others who did not hold such notions were unchristian and worthy of shunning by other Christians.
: Secondly, there are two aspects as regards the doctrine of the so-called parousia. There is a beginning and there is a conclusion to his presence when this system ends.
Oh, please. This is just a repeat of JW notions which have been completely debunked. The entire thrust of Matthew, Mark and Luke is centered on a single main event: the arrival, coming or parousia of Christ at the point just after "the sign of the Son of man" is seen in heaven. A careful study of the NT -- which JWs avoid like the plague -- shows that the terms are virtually interchangeable when used of this event.
: It is up to the discerning reader to understand which is which. In the verse you cited above, the false christs makes the claim that ‘I am he,’ and, ‘the due time has approached.’ Jesus clearly warned his followers that there would be those claiming to be the Christ
Wrong. I already discussed this at length. The fact that you've completely ignored it shows how dishonest you are with what you claim is God's Word.
The scripture clearly states that the pretenders come on the basis of Jesus' name. It would be pointless for someone claiming to be THE Christ to come on the basis of the name of a Christ that had already come. The term "Christ" in Greek also refers more generally to any "anointed one", anyone claiming to be specially appointed by God for some special task. Thus we have Matthew 24:24 warning about these many Christs, "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs..."
The point is that anyone who comes on the basis of Jesus' name cannot be claiming to be the real Jesus, the real Christ.
: and by that authority that the "due time has approached." At no time have any of Jehovah’s Witnesses or their Governing Body ever claimed to be Christ. So that prophecy does not refer to us. Period.
Since your argument deliberately ignores my prior argument, and is an obvious strawman, it can be dismissed. It is obvious that the leaders of Jehovah's Witnesses don't claim to be the real Christ, because if they did, they'd be denying the very Bible that they claim to uphold. Thus your argument is a strawman.
What JW leaders do claim is that they are "Christs" in the general sense, the sense of being anointed for a special job. They certainly claim to come on the basis of Jesus' name. Thus they certainly do claim "I am he" and, because they do this along with proclaiming that "the due time has approached" for Armageddon, the parousia and so forth, they perfectly fit the definition of those whom Jesus said not to follow.
: However, there is an obvious paradox here that must be solved. If Jesus wanted his followers to recognize the sign of his presence and to preach the message that God’s kingdom was near then why would he say not to follow those who were saying that the ‘due time has approached’ since the very existence of such false messiahs would indicate that the time had in fact approached?
There is no paradox. There is only an apparent paradox created by the false JW notion of an extended invisible "presence". Biblically, there is no such thing, because the parousia is a short, extremely observable event kicked off by the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man" in heaven, whatever that means.
Jesus was very clear: it would not be possible for anyone to observe any "signs" so as to determine in advance when he was about to appear. That is why he warned against anyone coming on the basis of his name and claiming to know when "the due time has approached".
: The answer is in the timing. According to Matthew’s account Jesus gave a more detailed warning about false prophets and false christ’s and when they would appear. True, Matthew’s account records that Jesus also warned that false prophets would appear before and during the entire interval of his presence, but, the most dangerous period for Jesus’ followers would be during the period of the tribulation. Luke’s account doesn’t really specify the time when such ones would arise but Matthew’s account definitely situates the arrival of the false christs during the tribulation period, which of course is yet future. That’s when many would arise claiming to be the Christ and saying that the time had arrived, for whatever they were leading people to believe was going to happen.
You don't even notice that your admission that the scriptures show that false Christs would arise continually, and not just at one point, blows away your argument.
: Jesus specifically warned that the deception would be so masterful that if it were possible that even his own chosen ones would be taken in by the deception.
Indeed, JW leaders have masterfully misled even very fine Christians. How sad.
: Jesus merely instructed his followers to categorically reject all such claimants
Precisely what I'm saying.
: for the simple reason that the real Jesus was not coming back physically.
Wrong. The scriptures warn against those who come on the basis of his name, not just those who might claim to be the one and only Christ.
: The point is, that those whom Jesus foretold would appear saying: "I am he,’ and, ‘the due time has approached." would arise at a point during the tribulation.
History shows that such persons have arisen from the time of Christ's death down till now.
: Therefore, we can say with certainty that Jesus was not talking about the true sons of the kingdom whom he dispatched to declare that God’s kingdom was near as evidenced by the signs.
Coming from a claimed "anointed one" with heavenly hopes who claims to understand the Bible even better than his masters, that's rich!
:: He told his disciples to watch out for things that could mislead them. One such thing would be persons who "come on the basis of" Jesus' name, i.e., not necessarily claiming to be Jesus himself (otherwise they could not come on the basis of the name of him who has already come) but claiming to speak in Jesus' name and invoking the spiritual authority that such would confer upon them. Such a claim is the very basis for the claims of authority of the leaders of Jehovah's Witnesses. Indeed, their most cherished doctrine is that they and they alone speak in the names of Jehovah and Jesus today.
: Indeed, the doctrinal basis for the Watchtower’s authority is found later on in that prophecy where Jesus foretold the appointment of a faithful slave to oversee his household.
Jesus never forethold anything like that. The illustration of Matthew 24:45 and the surrounding text is just that -- an illustration. It shows what will happen to faithful and unfaithful Christians. One will be rewarded and the other punished. That's all.
The Watchtower Society has really pushed itself into a corner on this passage. It has already begun teaching that the previous and succeeding passages, namely, Matthew 24:23-44 and 24:48-51; 25:1-46 apply to a future time. Why they still pull Matthew 24:45-47 out of context is obvious: without it, their religion collapses.
: So, it is a lie that Jesus has no one on earth during his parousia that he has authorized to speak for him.
The lie is in claiming that a Bible passage taken out-of-context is the basis for a religious authority.
: The evil slave better fits the description of a false prophet due to the fact that he too has a position of authority and uses his insider position to mislead others. Judging by the power that charlatans like Ray Franz, and others, have over apostate JWs, it is evident that that’s the case.
Sour grapes.
:: JW leaders also now falsely teach that Christ's parousia occurred in 1914, and that all sorts of world events prove them right. However, a careful look at the history of this Watchtower teaching proves that almost everything they've taught about it is unscriptural and unhistorical, and even that much of what they have taught has been based on deliberately selective or even falsified information and false arguments. Clearly, anyone who truly speaks in God's name has no need of lies. Based on the above, are the leaders of Jehovah's Witnesses false prophets in the Biblical sense. Obviously, yes.
: Nonsense. The teaching stands up to all the facts of history.
Far from it. Until the early 1990s the Society taught that earthquakes in the 20th century are up to 20 times worse than in previous centuries. They no longer teach that. Why? Because the writings of "apostates" like Ray Franz and Carl Olof Jonsson and many others proved that their claims were completely false, and were based on deliberately falsified statistics. The fact is that earthquakes kill 4-5 times fewer people on average than they did about 300 years ago. The fact is that even though population today is far higher, earthquakes kill about the same number of people as they did 300 years ago. Poof! There goes one "sign".
Fact: Famine kills far less of a percentage and an absolute number of people than even 100 years ago.
Poof! There goes another "sign".
Fact: Pestilence kills far less of a percentage and an absolute number of people than even 100 years ago.
Poof! There goes another "sign".
Fact: War kills about the same number of people as a percentage of population than in all previous centuries for which we have statistics.
Poof! There goes the last "sign" that JWs claim are listed in the Gospels.
Wow! With all the signs gone, what have we left? Nada.
The fact is that Jesus' words amount to a warning about what not to interpret as "signs" of the end. Why? Because the things given -- earthquakes, famine, pestilence and war -- have always been such common disasters that they couldn't possibly be signs of anything, any more than saying that the grass is green, the sky is blue and that young men lust after young women could be signs of anything.
:: Another proof is the way JW leaders have treated their brothers who disagree with them on certain doctrines. A person who simply offers his opinion about a biblical interpretation cannot logically declare that someone with a different opinion is wicked simply because their opinions differ.
: This is more nonsense. Here, the apostate would have us believe that if God’s spokesmen are not divinely inspired to utter infallible words from God that they are offering mere opinion.
That's far from nonsense. It's an obvious truth. Since only God is infallible, and men are not, anything that men offer that is not actually inspired is mere human opinion.
: In actuality, that is merely the poisoned opinion of an apostate. In reality, the faithful slave has divine authority over God’s household of believers to say what is to be taught as sound doctrine and what is not. That doesn’t mean they are unerring, but it does men that they have authority over God’s people.
Here we find You Know engaging in his usual slithery attempt to confuse issues. Even if JW leaders had the divinely appointed authority that he claims, they would still be fallible. And fallibility -- not authority -- is the point. Anyone who is fallible, no matter what authority they may have, should be humble enough to examine other viewpoints. JW leaders hardly ever examine viewpoints outside those which come from a tiny circle of perhaps 25 to 50 men in the New York area. When sincere people send them material that blows away current teachings, they don't look for how to make things right. They look for ways to blow away the one who pointed the problem out. It is that sort of arrogance, that willingness to trample upon "the sheep", that proves more than anything else that JW leaders are not what they claim.
:: But a person who equates his own opinion with God's opinion can logically do so, since the biblical notion of "wicked" is "anything that goes against God's opinion". The conduct of JW leaders, in instituting the formal arrangement of disfellowshipping and disassociation, proves that they hold that their opinions are equal to God's.
: People are disfellowshipped who cause dissension and do not recognize the authority of the faithful slave.
That's just another way to say what I said.
: It is entirely Scriptural to remove such persons from God’s household who would set stumbling blocks before their brothers as they are not fit to remain and represent the organization as ministers of Christ.
That would be true if JW leaders were as infallible as God. Since they are not, they have no business beating up on others.
:: They declare that anyone who publicly disagrees with their opinions is also disagreeing with God, and therefore is an apostate.
: That’s because they blaspheme God by denouncing those whom God appointed over his household.
Another strawman. The fact is that most so-called "apostates" only start to denounce JW leaders when those leaders first treat them like dirt, and try to break up their families. Most dissenters start out with sincere differences of opinion, usually based on their careful scriptural or other research. When they find that JW leaders fail to respond at all, or respond with a bit of patting on the head that never touches the issue they brought up, or go so far as to disfellowship them merely for voicing an opinion, then the tables turn.
: Remember, Satan’s criteria for God’s servants and Jehovah’s are two different things entirely. Satan is the Accuser who accuses us night and day before God. Jehovah is not nearly so harsh in his judgments. And those two points of view are reflected in the contrast between faithful witnesses and apostate dubs. The bottom line is, that just because the faithful slave may err or misinterpret some prophecies, of have premature expectations, does not mean that he does not have an appointment over God’s household. That is pure apostate bull manure.
Your arguments are purely those of a cornered apostate against God trying to defend the apostates he works for. Many of those you call "apostates" are merely critics of the JW organization. A real apostate is someone who has betrayed God by claiming to be what he is not. You and JW leaders certainly fit that description.
:: The Watchtower Society has caused many, many "righteous ones" to be shunned for "apostasy" when their only real "sin" was to publicly disagree with demonstrably false JW teachings.
: Any brother who deliberately seeks to undermine the trust of Jehovah’s Witnesses in their leadership is wicked and has no place in God’s household of faithful ministers.
You first have to prove how demonstrated false teachers can possibly be a "faithful slave" and why God would appoint such false teachers to be over "all of Christ's belongings".
:: It is ironic how well Jesus' words about 'out of your own mouth you will be condemned' apply to the excuses of JW apologists like You Know:
: Jesus hasn’t condemned us.
Not yet. But mark my words: He will! (Note to the humor-challenged: this is irony)
: Apostates are the accusers and those who falsely judge and condemn their former brothers by twisting God’s word to suit their own ends. You are merely passing off your own jaundiced opinions as if they were the Judgments of God.
Hey, I've proved that I can expound on the scriptures better than you and better than the Society. Any reader other than a JW can see that it is you who have twisted scriptures and ignored solid arguments. It is you, Bobby, because of that and because of your opinions that JW leaders themselves have royally screwed up that makes you an apostate in the opinion of those foolish men.
: By all accounts you, and all apostates, are unspiritual and animalistic men who seek to separate Jehovah’s Witnesses from their leadership, wreck their faith, and exploit them for your own wicked purpose.
The imparting of truth to people is a noble enterprise. Try it sometime. You might like it.
JW leaders are the ones who exploit others. They use the community of Jehovah's Witnesses to further their aims. What aims? Very selfish ones indeed. They're far more concerned with getting their supposed heavenly reward than anything else, and they don't hesitate to trample on any JW who gets in their way. Having become old and spiritually ossified, they cannot change. But change will come to the JW organization, and when it does, these old men will be seen for what they really are -- exploiters of the sheep. They will be seen to be just like C. T. Russell and J. F. Rutherford -- massive exploiters, concerned mainly with their hoped-for reward.
AlanF
AlanF

You Know said to jayhawk1:
::That makes the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society a prophet. They claim to speak by divine inspiration.
: That is a lie and you know it. I challenge you to produce one Watchtower article that claims such a thing.
No problem. Read it and weep, Bobby.
The book Holy Spirit -- The Force Behind the Coming New Order! said on pages 175-6:
Here is what he [Jehovah] says in Isaiah 51:15, 16:
"I, Jehovah, am your God, the One stirring up the sea that its waves may be boisterous. Jehovah of armies is his name. And I shall put my words in your mouth, and with the shadow of my hand I shall certainly cover you, in order to plant the heavens and lay the foundation of the earth and say to Zion, ‘You are my people.’ "
No obstacle put in His way by the enemies will prove to be insurmountable for Jehovah. Just as at Mount Sinai He put his word in the mouth of his chosen people through the mediator Moses and thereafter he led them under the protective shadow of his hand into the Promised Land, so he has done for the remnant of spiritual Israel. He has put his word, his message of the hour, into the mouth of the spiritual remnant for them to confess openly before all the world, for their own salvation and for that of responsive hearers. A "great crowd" of "other sheep" have acted favorably upon what they have heard and have taken God’s word into their mouth.
Anyone in whose mouth Jehovah has "put his word" is inspired by him, by definition. Such words are by definition, "God-breathed," and fit the definition given above by the Watchtower Society itself in the Insight book.
The book Light I (1930), said on page 12:
The remnant now "see visions"; that is to say, are given an understanding of things not heretofore understood.... The time for the fulfilment of the prophecy of Revelation seems to be from about 1879 forward until the kingdom is in full sway. It was about that date that the second presence of the Lord began to be observed, and that and other truths began to appear in The Watch Tower, which since then until now has been the means of communicating truth to those who love the Lord. All those who love God supremely believe that The Watch Tower was started and has been maintained by his power and grace.
The remnant is here claimed to be given an understanding of things by none other than Jehovah himself. On page 106 Light I said further:
Visible human creatures had to do with that message, [a resolution adopted at the 1922 Cedar Point, Ohio, convention] yet, in fact, it was a message of the Lord sent through his invisible angels, because without a doubt these are clothed with authority to direct the course of earthly members of God’s organization.
The above is a case where the Society explicitly claims that what it said was not taken from the Bible, but was miraculously given to it through angels. Is this not a claim of inspiration?
The following quotations are adapted from the website of Ken Raines, http://www.premier1.net/~raines/guided.html . They prove that especially during J. F. Rutherford's time, the Society taught that its leaders were inspired by angels:
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Being under the direction of angels meant the remnant received information and organization instructions from angels. In Rutherford's words:
Certain duties and kingdom interests have been committed by the Lord to his angels, which include the transmission of information to God's anointed people on the earth for their aid and comfort. Even though we cannot understand how the angels transmit this information, we know that they do it. (Preparation, 1933, pp. 36, 37; The Watchtower, August 15, 1933, p. 243 P3; The Watchtower, March 1, 1938 p. 79, P4.
These angels are invisible to human eyes and are there to carry out the orders of the Lord. No doubt they first hear the instruction which the Lord issues to his remnant and then these invisible messengers pass such instruction on to the remnant. Vindication III, 1932, p. 250; The Watchtower, September 15, 1938, p. 285 (Last paragraph).
... angels are delegated by the Lord to convey his instructions to the members of his organization on earth. Just how this is done is not necessary for us to understand. The Watchtower, December 1, 1933, p. 364.
The information from angels that was given to Rutherford and the rest of the remnant included the interpretation of Scripture that was printed in Watchtower literature:
This question is propounded for the benefit of those faithful ones of the remnant now on earth, and the angel of the Lord brings to them the needed information in answer to their questions. (Rev. 1:1) This is proof that the interpretation of prophecy does not proceed from man, but that the Lord Jesus, the chief one in Jehovah's organization, sends the necessary information to his people by and through his holy angels. Preparation, p. 28; The Watchtower, August 1, 1933, p. 231, P23.
How did God by angels transmit the interpretations of Scripture and prophecy to the remnant and specifically to Rutherford?
Without a doubt the Lord uses his angels to cause the truth to be published in The Watchtower... Certainly God guides his covenant people by using the holy angels to convey his message to them. The Watchtower, February 1, 1935, p. 41.
Rutherford said that these angels transmitted information inaudibly as thoughts into the remnant's minds:
... the remnant are instructed by the angels of the Lord. The remnant do not hear audible sounds, because such is not necessary. Jehovah has provided his own good way to convey thoughts to the minds of his anointed ones. Preparation, p. 64; The Watchtower, August 15, 1933, pp. 247, 248, P17; The Watchtower, Sept. 15, 1938, p. 286.
Surely the holy angels of the Jehovah God, who are under the command of Christ Jesus and accompany him at his temple as his deputies, are clothed with power to put questions in the minds of those on earth who are devoted to God. It is not necessary for us to know just how this is done, but there can be no doubt about the power of the deputies of the Lord. The Watchtower, May 15, 1938, p. 157; Light 1, pp. 61, 62. See also: The Watchtower, November 1, 1937, p. 326, P14; 1938 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses, Daily Texts and Comments, February 15; 1935 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses, Daily Texts and Comments, Nov. 22; The Watchtower, February 15, 1935, p. 54, P1.
Rutherford believed that the Holy Spirit was the force that, in the early church, God used to enlighten Christians. He believed that the Holy Spirit was replaced by angels in 1918 and these took over controlling the minds of the remnant:
... the Lord Jesus Christ, the Head of "the servant", acting by and through his holy angels, has directed and is directing that work. It was the holy spirit that operated upon the minds of men in the early church to take certain action; but now the Lord Jesus himself has returned, is in his temple, and, acting by and through his holy angels, puts into the mind and heart of the remnant class to take positive action and to do a certain work... The Watchtower, September 1, 1930, p. 263 P 27; 1931 Yearbook of the International Bible Students Association, Daily Texts and Comments, February 17.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
AlanF
jayhawk1

Okay You Know, you asked, so here you go. First let's again start with the DICTIONARY'S definition.You Know, I found this at http://www.dictionary.com
proph·et
n.
1. A person who speaks by divine inspiration or as the interpreter through whom the will of a god is expressed.
2. A person gifted with profound moral insight and exceptional powers of expression.
3. A predictor; a soothsayer.
4. The chief spokesperson of a movement or cause.
5.
a. Prophets (used with a sing. or pl. verb) The second of the three divisions of the Hebrew Scriptures, comprising the books of Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the Twelve. Used with the. See table at Bible.
b. Prophet One of the prophets mentioned in the Bible, especially one believed to be the author of one of these books. Used with the.
6. Prophet Islam. Muhammad. Used with the.
That makes the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society a prophet. They claim to speak by divine inspiration.
Now here is a scan from a website I found, it is from the Watchtower.

Now repeat after me You Know, "The Watchtower Society Is A False Prophet."
"Hand me that whiskey, I need to consult the spirit."-J.F. Rutherford
Jeremy's Hate Mail Hall Of Fame.
http://hometown.aol.com/onjehovahside/ and [email protected]
ladonna

Jayhawk,
Great post!! You really proved a point there. You're also crackin' me up big time
1975 was a year I shook through YK. I will never, ever forget it. The same as may others here. It affected our lives. Admitt it...for once, just once admitt the WTBTS made a big mistake.
Ana
jayhawk1

Ladonna, thank you, but the credit for the page does belong to the owner of this site.
http://www.jwfiles.com/inspired.htm
I am also glad you can get a laugh out of it, because I try to be entertaining too.
"Hand me that whiskey, I need to consult the spirit."-J.F. Rutherford
Jeremy's Hate Mail Hall Of Fame.
http://hometown.aol.com/onjehovahside/ and [email protected]
dubla

yk-
you said to alanf:
First, I have not twisted the Scriptures. If you think that I have then it's your responsibility to explain which ones I have twisted and what the correct understanding is, Otherwise you are just making a false unsubstantiated claim.
i just want to note here, that i have already specifically explained which ones you have twisted, and the correct understanding (of course you ignored my post).....but i will do it again here for the sake of repitition. you quoted john 21:23 as proof that the apostles publicly spread false teachings......here was my explanation of how you twisted that particular verse:
okay, lets examine the scripture you quoted, shall we?
John 21:23
Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"
how does this answer the question of whether or not the "apostles PUBLICLY SPREAD false teaching about the return of Christ."? it doesnt, and you know this. there is no scripture to back up the apostles EVER publicly spreading these false teachings........and there is a world of difference between rumors that spread among the apostles, and publicly spreading false teachings. is that too difficult for you to understand? surely you will dodge yet again; perhaps you are simply "biblically illiterate". another prime example of scripture twisting.
i realize you are probably pretty bogged down right now, trying to figure a way to dig yourself from your latest hole, in which you said the WT has never claimed to be inspired (what a joke).......but hopefully this helps.
aa
You Know

JAYHAWK:
That ain't gonna work. How does Jehovah notify his servants? It's through the Bible. That's what they were talking about. Nice try though. / You Know

IS THE WATCHTOWER A FALSE PROPHET?

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