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Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.
by jonathan dough 204 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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lovelylil2
Jeremiah,
You said you are not a witness but I would swear you are a bible student. The reason is you sound so much like the cousins of the JWs, I know I have spoken to many of you. If not you are surely a JW sympathizer.
Anyway, Jonathan has done a great job so far rebutting all the WT and Bible Student "proof" texts that Jesus is not God but I will try to add my 2 cents.
You sent me a pm saying Jesus is "a god" but not Almighty God.........If that is true then are you saying Jesus is a false God because there is only one TRUE God according to the bible?
What you, JW's and BS simply do not grasp is that NOONE is saying that Jesus is the same person as the father. In position, the father is greater than the son becasue the son willingly submits to him but in NATURE they are totally equal members of the Godhead. The Godhead exists in three distinct persons, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Again, Jesus is not the same person as the father but in nature is equal as a 2nd person in the Godhead.
And NO, we are not talking about a 3 headed God. But ONE God, who in nature = Father,Son, Holy Spirit. The WT claims that 3 cannot equal 1 but according to 1 Thessalonians 5:23, humans are spirit, soul and body.
In the Torah, one of God's names is Elohim which is plural, not singular. Also, in Genesis at the beginning of creation God says "let us make man in OUR image, since we are made in God's image, who was God speaking to when he said "us?"
Also for all those who claim Jesus was only a high level Angel, the entire point of Hebrews chapter 1 is to show that God's son has supremancy above all others, including all the angels. And that mankind will worship him as God.
Here are some texts of Hebrews 1 that clearly show this;
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word
*note verse 3 says the Son is the "radiance of God's glory and the EXACT representation of his being", how can Jesus as an Angel be the exact representation of God's being. Think of looking at your own reflection in the mirror. Do you look in the mirror and see another human or do you see something lower than that?
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
"You are my Son;
today I have become your Father? Or again,
"I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son"? 6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
"Let all God's angels worship him." 7 In speaking of the angels he says,
"He makes his angels winds,
his servants flames of fire." 8 But about the Son he says,
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jonathan dough
One more reason Christ cannot have been a mere man and not an angel but God.
Jesus is “master” and absolute ruler - (Despotes); a separate Christ and a separate God cannot both exercise this role - (2 Peter 2:1; Jude 4)
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JosephMalik
ME: First, God is a name. Read Isaiah 9:6 :For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be on his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."
Jonathan,
I did read it and there is not a name in that verse anywhere. It does show how Trinitarians think and distort verses however. I find this kind of thinking throughout their explanations. Now you are trying to tell me I am wrong and teaching that Wonderful Counselor is a name, or Mighty God is a name or Eternal Father is a name, or Prince of Peach is a name. This means to me that you do not understand texts since no name appears in this verse anywhere as you are teaching. The English translation of this Hebrew word is translated that way of course since the work was done by Trinitarian translators and they selected it, but this Hebrew word has many meanings and this Jesus referenced here does not have such names. This shows that Trinitarians cannot think and we find such wrong thinking in all their explanations. The word means:
08034 shem
a primitive word [perhaps rather from 07760 through the idea of definite and conspicuous position; n m; {See TWOT on 2405}
AV-name 832, renown 7, fame 4, famous 3, named 3, named + 07121 2, famous + 07121 1, infamous + 02931 1, report 1, misc 10; 864
1) name
1a) name
1b) reputation, fame, glory
1c) the Name (as designation of God)
1d) memorial, monument
This word in Isaiah describes our Lord’s reputation, fame, glory and are a memorial to Him. That is what Isaiah is talking about but I did not expect you to know that.
I also enjoyed your review of my document. It was what I expected from you and I want others to see your review of it. Happily you did not disappoint me and I thank you for this. Now they can decide for themselves if it is as bad as you say. http://home.earthlink.net/~jmalik/beytrin.htm
Joseph
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jonathan dough
Now you are trying to tell me I am wrong and teaching that Wonderful Counselor is a name, or Mighty God is a name or Eternal Father is a name, or Prince of Peach is a name.
That is exactly what I am saying. You are using a concept of name too narrowly, which is a common JW tactic. While shem can also be a synonym for reputation and fame, it is predominantly used as that which one is called, thus a name. The child will be called a name. In this instance it can have a dual application. Christianity teaches Christ had many names, that the sense of name with respect to him is very broad, and for an exhaustive list of Christ's other names, check the subject index of Strong and Vines where you will find at least 150 other "names" for Christ such as "I AM." We know you reject the Trinity, but I'd much rather put my trust in 2 Billion Christians and the vast majority of Bibles and scholars who apply a broader interpretation of shem and other references to Christ. The I AM is a name. Moses asked God specifically for a name, that which he should be called. Exodus 3:16. You're thinking in English.
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JosephMalik
"I AM."
Jonathan,
I AM is not a name either as you were shown. The Apostles did not call Jesus Wonderful Counselor, Eternal Father or things like that anywhere. Now you can keep on insisting on it but your Trinitarian sources are not scripture.
Joseph
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jonathan dough
"I AM."
Jonathan,
I AM is not a name either as you were shown. The Apostles did not call Jesus Wonderful Counselor, Eternal Father or things like that anywhere. Now you can keep on insisting on it but your Trinitarian sources are not scripture.
Joseph
First, you are applying too narrow of a test, ie. "We have to have proof that the apostles called Jesus this name, or else that is not his name." We don't know if they did or not. That doesn't mean they didn't, but that's beside the point because the fact of Jesus being God was gradual revelation.
Secondly, they knew that he referred to Himself as the I AM and being fully aware of Exodus 3:16 they also knew the I AM to be a name.
Third, the NT does not record that Jesus was called Immanuel either by the apostles, but that is his name as well. Although they might have.
Fourth, they didn't call Him Jesus Christ, either. That was not his name while on earth, but that is considered His name now.
You have tunnel vision on this. The Trinity doctrine is based on sound scriptural evidence. Jesus Christ is the I AM.
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JosephMalik
Jonathan,
The intended post on I AM did not complete but anyone that would like to see it can go to: http://home.earthlink.net/~jmalik/beytrin.htm#_Toc244665984
Joseph
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designs
If you conceive of God or the Divine as being ubiquitous, omnipresent, transcendant, and immanent then that All Filling Being makes everything divine.
Walk gently on the earth.
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isaacaustin
wow. I am so in awe of designs words.