by Terry 63 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Man has so much value to God that God was willing to Die in Human form, in the form of his Son, to show HOW much man is worthy...He did it to show us not only his love, but that we are worthy of his love, worthy of salvation and worthy of the gift of Grace, even if we didn't/don't think we are.
Why do we need salvation or grace in the first place - in your opinion? What are we being saved from?
Terry,
I don't think I understand your question...
I'm asking what is the source of that value??
Our value to God or to each other or to oursevles?
How can man simultaneously have value and yet not merit Grace?
We do merit Grace.
Why do we need salvation or grace in the first place - in your opinion? What are we being saved from?
That is an excellent question.
Typically I would say that we need salvation from ourselves, we tend to be selfish and "wicked" people, capable opf great good and great "evil".
It is the potential for great Good that makes us special and of value to God, one another and ourselves and the potential for great evil that we need to be saved from and we are saved from it be God's gift of Grace.
God's love is infinite, no matter what we do that is good, God can't love us any more than he does, for he already loves as as much as he can.
No matter how much evil we do, God can't love us any less, because God already loves us as much as we can.
That is Grace, a gift given to us but one that does require us to receive it.
I know that some like to view Grace as this SUPPOSED "get out of jail free" card, but nowhere does Grace imply freedom from punishment, its about love and salvation and NOT the repercussions of our actions when we do something that is wrong.
Someone that is a serial killer or serial rapist ( as an example) is under grace, God still loves him/her, but that love doesn't mean that they won't have to answer for the crimes they commited, it just means that God's love allows them the chance to be forgiven, but the penality will still have to be paid.
I understand the concept of grace - well, I understand several of them, depending on which variety of Christian I ask.
But, I'm trying to find kind of a direct answer here - is your position that our salvation - provided by God - is from ourselves?
Typically I would say that we need salvation from ourselves, we tend to be selfish and "wicked" people, capable opf great good and great "evil".
Just asking to clarify, first, to make sure I'm not misunderstanding you. Because if that's the case, I don't understand how this actually occurs in any meaningful way.
I'm also asking because later in your post you described us answering for crimes committed - which seems to take salvation and grace in another direction entirely. Where we are not being saved from ourselves - but we are being saved from some unspecified entity who is going to make us pay for our sins.
I'm looking for specifics, moreso than prose. I want to know what - or who - we are being saved from. In this instance, I don't think "ourselves" qualifies, because we aren't talking about being saved from self-destructive behavior, like an addiction or something.
I'm asking how God can love us if we hold no value due to being worthless sinners.
Who's worhless? Where did you get that idea?
Amaaaaaazing Graaaace, how sweeeeeet the sound
That saaaaaved a WRETCH like meeeeee......
(Are you saying this song is bogus?
Do you know what a trophy is?
Yes, it is what the PREDATOR travelled from planet to planet killing indigenous lifeforms in order to collect.
Seems to me the crux of this whole matter lies in the definition of justice.
Terry wrote "Justice is getting what you deserve and not getting what you don't deserve." That is what justice means in every occasion that I can think of, but some on this board feel they can change that definition when god is involved.
Just shows me that if you want to believe something bad enough, you can make it fit no matter what. Believers seem to do that with the whole bible, if literal doesn't fit, then let's make it figurative. After all, it has to fit somehow. I'm glad I left that all behind at the KH.
I'm also asking because later in your post you described us answering for crimes committed - which seems to take salvation and grace in another direction entirely. Where we are not being saved from ourselves - but we are being saved from some unspecified entity who is going to make us pay for our sins.
If my child commits a crime and I find out about it, my love for her will not change at all, how can it? I love her without conditions.
I will however see that she pays for the crime she commited, wouldn't you?
Grace does NOT absolve someone from wrong doing, where in the bible does it state that?
You asked from WHAT are we being saved and I replied that, typically, it is from ourselves.
That is a simple answer to a complex question, but a correct one I think because it is up to US to embrace our salavtion so yes, we must save ourselves from ourselves.
Our capacity for evil, for lack of a better word.
We we embrace grace, we embrace God trough Jesus, we embrace God's love and it fills us full of love for ourselves and one another, it saves US from ourselves by making LOVE the guiding force that drives us to DO GOOD, BE GOOD.
Just shows me that if you want to believe something bad enough, you can make it fit no matter what. Believers seem to do that with the whole bible, if literal doesn't fit, then let's make it figurative.
This prompts me to make a general statement. This is my working Hypothesis about the Bible itself.
The Bible invites so much interpretation to make sense of any schema because it HAD NO AUTHOR.
Which is to say, there isn't a singular mind behind it.
The Bible is more of a confusion of narratives and meta-narratives; each ASSUMING there really IS a singular author and purpose.
Each new narrator (or translator) feels the necessity of CLARIFYING a bit (for the rest of us.)
Sidebar: I believe it was the Russian composer Igor Stravinsky who said: "There is no such thing as music THEORY. One can be deduced from existing music, however."
This is how I believe Theology has come to be. There is no such thing as Theology. One (or many) can be deduced from existing writings.
The Theology which has produced the Doctrine of GRACE is ex post facto. It is deduced rather loosely by necessity by this fellow Paul.
It made a certain kind of sense to those hearing it. It has been honed and perfected (such as it is) over time. This is why there isn't just ONE doctrine of Grace, but, several. Each tries to address the logical holes in the narrative.
That's my idea.
Why do we need salvation or grace in the first place - in your opinion? What are we being saved from?
An excellent question and an essential one.
The fact of the matter is most Christians fail to acknowledge we are BEING SAVED FROM GOD himself and his wrath!
The threat made to Adam was death at the hands of God.
GRACE is an offer by God to withold His wrath.
With that basis clearly in mind I repeat my questions?
1.If man doesn't deserve to die even though he is a sinner--how is it God has always punished man for being a sinner?
2.If man does deserve to die as a sinner---how is it God can love man "while yet a sinner" although previously condemning him for it?
3. Grace isn't grace if it is DESERVED. If it isn't DESERVED there must be a JUST legal basis for it on the part of a righteous and perfect God who has always demanded perfection and obedience.
There's the rub.
On what basis does "God so love...."? sinners while yet in their sins?
Grace does NOT absolve someone from wrong doing, where in the bible does it state that?
You asked from WHAT are we being saved and I replied that, typically, it is from ourselves.
That is a simple answer to a complex question, but a correct one I think because it is up to US to embrace our salavtion so yes, we must save ourselves from ourselves.
Our capacity for evil, for lack of a better word.
We we embrace grace, we embrace God trough Jesus, we embrace God's love and it fills us full of love for ourselves and one another, it saves US from ourselves by making LOVE the guiding force that drives us to DO GOOD, BE GOOD.
1. For 1500 years the universal Christian Church (Catholic) taught that merit could be earned by good deeds. Giving gifts to the church (wink wink) could increase one's grace, for example. Quid pro quo. (Give to the Church=God gives to you.)
2. This bank account of Grace led to the sale of indulgences and the corruption of the Church as an instrument of Salvation.
3.Luther condemned the Catholic Church and ended up being instrumental in what is known as the REFORMATION. (The church was re-formed as Protestantism.)
4. Luther taught a different definition of Grace. Luther taught that men were helpless and without a plea before God's justice, and their acts of piety were utterly inadequate before His infinite holiness
5. Luther believed we humans are all so utterly wretched and corrupt we deserve to go to hell no matter how many good things we do.
6.Our inability to achieve salvation by our own effort suggests that even our best intention is somehow tainted by our sinful nature, according to Luther.
7. John Calvin developed Luther's ideas into a Doctrine he called TOTAL DEPRAVITY. Only God's mercy (rather than His perfect Justice) can save man from Total Depravity.
8. A tricky set of pronouncements were employed to "clarify" man's condition and path to salvation. Some of them were hopelessly confused and self-contradictory.
A. Faith Alone was required RATHER THAN works. This was followed by Grace Alone saved man. Faith ALONE + Grace ALONE. If one is "alone" how is it you have something else?
B. There is no notion of MERIT on the part of Man and his actions in Luther or Calvin's theology! Only UNearned and UNmerited favor from God
can save man.
C. FAITH in God's Unmerited favor is an ACT on the part of man, however! How could a worthless sinner ACT out of FAITH in the first place?
D. Another AD HOC doctrine was needed to explain this: PREVENIENT Grace. John Wesley invented this one. Man had j-u-s-t e-n-o-u-g-h divine
godliness in him to exercise Faith in Grace. Sort of a bootstrapping mechanism, you see.
E. John Calvin believed man could do nothing if God had not ELECTED HIM worthy of life everlasting even before the world began! This was man's
DESTINY!
F. John Wesley preferred freedom-of-choice (moral decision) on the part of man in EXERCISING faith. Calvin saw this as an ACT irresistible
because only a predestinated elect person could do it.
Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, straddle the argument and the gulf between PREDESTINATION (the 144,000) and Free Will (other sheep).
You see, they've INVENTED THEIR OWN version of Grace.
But then, all alone the historical way people were inventing doctines right and left according to what seemed logical to them!
They were salting scripture to suit their own tastes, you might say!
None of these doctrines address my question adequately.
1.If God PREDESTINATES sinners and saints---on what basis does He love the one and hate the other? Whim? Justice? Merit?
2.If God allows free will choice-making; how does a corrupt sinner make a righteous decision in the first place? Why isn't the ACT of expressing FAITH (whether alone or with good works) a participation in earning God's good will? Quid pro quo.
3.Where does the Justice of God (eye for eye/tooth for tooth, what a man sows he shall reap, etc.) enter the picture? Does God abandon Justice
in the pursuit of mercy? For God to do so requires a legal basis never once stated in scripture. (if it is so stated---where?)
In short:
ON WHAT BASIS does God value the sinner so that we can say God LOVED us (sinners) while we are YET sinners?
