God so LOVED the world.........................................WHY? How could He?

by Terry 63 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

superpunk

If my child commits a crime and I find out about it, my love for her will not change at all, how can it? I love her without conditions.
I will however see that she pays for the crime she commited, wouldn't you?
hypothetically yes, I suppose.
Grace does NOT absolve someone from wrong doing, where in the bible does it state that?
You keep bringing this up - I don't really want to get into that, yet. It really has nothing to do with the question I asked.
You asked from WHAT are we being saved and I replied that, typically, it is from ourselves.
That is a simple answer to a complex question, but a correct one I think because it is up to US to embrace our salavtion so yes, we must save ourselves from ourselves.
It's not a simple answer - it's an incredibly vague answer, and I don't understand it. If we don't get "saved from ourselves" - what will happen?
Our capacity for evil, for lack of a better word.
We we embrace grace, we embrace God trough Jesus, we embrace God's love and it fills us full of love for ourselves and one another, it saves US from ourselves by making LOVE the guiding force that drives us to DO GOOD, BE GOOD.
Surely you know that it is not necessary to "embrace grace" to accomplish those things.
We can use a parallel, if you want. I see a transaction in your point of view, but I do not see well-defined roles for the players. You seem to be making them completely interchangable. If I was to succinctly outline what you're saying - God sacrificed himself, for US, to offer us grace so that we could save ourselves from ourselves. As an illustration, if we were drowning in a river - God tosses us a rope (grace) in order to save us from the river (which is also us). You are using very vague terms - I'm trying to find something more specific. Maybe pointed questions will help.
What happened that made us need to be saved from ourselves? Or were we created that way? (You've expressed disbelief in the OT legends before - again this is the difficulty in discussing theology with Christians - they've each got their own...I don't know whether you believe Adam and Eve actually happened. I'm guessing you don't.)
If we don't get saved from ourselves what will happen?
Who is this penalty getting paid to? Ourselves? Or someone else?
Someone that is a serial killer or serial rapist ( as an example) is under grace, God still loves him/her, but that love doesn't mean that they won't have to answer for the crimes they commited, it just means that God's love allows them the chance to be forgiven, but the penality will still have to be paid.
I feel like you're kind of all over the place with this concept.
PSacramento

1.If God PREDESTINATES sinners and saints---on what basis does He love the one and hate the other?
IF is the correct way to ask that question.
I think that, IF God predestines some people for special works then those people are predestined for special works and that has nothing to do with those that are NOT predestined and if ALL are predestined to be either Good or bad then indeed, Grace is the only thing that can save us.
2.If God allows free will choice-making; how does a corrupt sinner make a righteous decision in the first place? Why isn't the ACT of expressing FAITH (whether alone or with good works) a participation in earning God's good will?
If one believes that we are corrupt WITHOUT the possibility of redemption then we can't save ourselves and again, Grace is needed.
3.Where does the Justice of God (eye for eye/tooth for tooth, what a man sows he shall reap, etc.) enter the picture?
Not sure what you mean...where does Justice enter the picture with Grace?
They are two different things.
In short: ON WHAT BASIS does God value the sinner so that we can say God LOVED us (sinners) while we are YET sinners?
That is the gift of Grace, God loves us, period.
If you believe that stuff of course.
Terry

Another historical sidebar.
The Catholic Church represented to the world of Christianity the following position:
1. Only through the church can you get sacrament and forgiveness.
2.Once forgiven you can express faith in God's grace
Protestant reformation theology stated:
1.Faith alone between the sinner and God alone brings the EXPERIENCE of salvation (being born again).
2.Expression of faith in that mercy of God was either predestined or prevenient (just enough for you to act).
This sort of left the church as EXTRANEOUS for Protestants. Consequently, variations sprang up.
Jehovah's Witnesses graft the Catholic necessity of CHURCH (Governing Body) and works (witnessing) with a free will faith (co-erced by the Watchtower on the threat of disfellowshipping) for earned salvation.
Everybody gets to invent whatever they want using INTERPRETATION of corrupt scriptures (no original texts remain to correct these accretions)
and Christianity is a muddle.
PSacramento

If we don't get "saved from ourselves" - what will happen?
That is a good question to. the bible mentions what can happen if we are not saved, but since you don't hold stock in the bible, what it says doesn't matter so I am not sure what answer you are looking for.
Surely you know that it is not necessary to "embrace grace" to accomplish those things.
Perhaps, perhaps not. Grace is different things to different people it seems.
What happened that made us need to be saved from ourselves? Or were we created that way? (You've expressed disbelief in the OT legends before - again this is the difficulty in discussing theology with Christians - they've each got their own...I don't know whether you believe Adam and Eve actually happened. I'm guessing you don't.)
Adam and Eve and Genesis is a story of creation, an inspired writers attempt to explain creation for his audience.
I believe that Adam and Eve are symbolic of the first humans to reach "awareness" of God.
And yes, theology is an interesting discussion, to say the least.
Were we created this way? Well, since I believe in evolution I would say we evolved this way and with potential to be more, far more.
Who is this penalty getting paid to? Ourselves? Or someone else?
Someone that is a serial killer or serial rapist ( as an example) is under grace, God still loves him/her, but that love doesn't mean that they won't have to answer for the crimes they commited, it just means that God's love allows them the chance to be forgiven, but the penality will still have to be paid.
I feel like you're kind of all over the place with this concept.
We each pay for our own "sins".
superpunk

I feel like we're not even talking about the same thing, or it seems that you are being vague so that you can avoid the scenario Terry described;
The fact of the matter is most Christians fail to acknowledge we are BEING SAVED FROM GOD himself and his wrath!
GRACE is an offer by God to withold His wrath.
This is a transaction;
We each pay for our own "sins".
Can you describe it in detail? Who are we paying?
THE GLADIATOR

You could go mad - trying to make sense of the sin/grace debate.
It starts off with a false premise and then twists turns and contradicts. It has all been said before so I won't go ranting on.
People believe because they want to. When it no longer suits them they stop. It's much like taking drugs.
WTWizard

The whole thing is a scam. God so HATES mankind that He has set up a scam, so that they could think they are all "saved" or that they have a hope. In exchange for this "hope", you require everyone to be dedicated to God. Of course, you intentionally distress mankind, preventing us from finding our own way out, and use this "hope(??)" as the only way out. Of course, deliverance never comes--and people pxxx away their whole lives waiting for it to not come.
goldensky

Terry, I find your reasoning very interesting. It makes a lot of sense to me. This sentence struck me, "We are being saved from God himself and His wrath". That has been my feeling for a couple of years now but I hadn't succeeded in expressing it in so few words.
The gladiator, your points sound very logical too. I don't know about the Darwin part though, since that's one of the subjects I haven't tackled yet, but I'm sure some surprises are in store for me.
Terry

Man, if created, is identified as man by what he is and what he isn't.
That identity makes him man.
(A circle doesn't have flat sides but does have an outside an equal distance from its center point.) This identifies the circle.
For God to demand more of man than was created into him to do would be a pervese injustice--would it not?
On what basis could God love man as a creation IN THE FIRST PLACE?
A job/accomplishment well done, perhaps?
All other creations were approved by the Creator: "And God saw that it was good."
In the Genesis creation account where is the report of God LOVING man as His creature?
Can we say God loved the first two humans? Why doesn't it say so?
At what point in scripture do we FIRST read that GOD LOVED a human?
Would that not represent God's standard of what is "lovable?"
Psalm 52 speaks of "the Love of God..." without giving a particular recipient named as individual. This "love of God" is floating like a dust mote on the still air. No object is named.
This question troubled even the ancient Greeks. It was viewed as a dillemma.
Socrates asks Euthyphro if the "pious person is loved by the gods BECAUSE he is pious...or...is he Pious because he is loved by the gods?"
A sort of chicken and egg problem (which comes first?)
For God to LOVE a human would it be BECAUSE the human was lovable in some way? If so, the human MERITED (deserved) the love and friendship with God. But, if the human was totally undeserving in the first place---on what basis would God love him and offer friendship?
There is a TENSION between God and mankind throughout all of history.
God must be FEARED because God's wrath will destroy man (deservedly) and not whimsically (the Judeo-Christian God always has legal basis for punishment.)
The Muslim god (Allah) however, is unknowable and arbitrary. He can love you or hate you without apparent reason.
You see where I am going with this?
PSacramento

The fact of the matter is most Christians fail to acknowledge we are BEING SAVED FROM GOD himself and his wrath!
GRACE is an offer by God to withold His wrath.
I think that, IF you view God as a wraithful being that created man faulty on purpose and is holding him hostage with grace ( worhsip me or die bitch !) then yes, I can see this view being "correct".
If you believe that God will punish you with his wrath unless you do what he says, which ou course is irrelevant to anyone that does NOt believe in God.

You could go mad - trying to make sense of the sin/grace debate.
It starts off with a false premise and then twists turns and contradicts. It has all been said before so I won't go ranting on.
People believe because they want to. When it no longer suits them they stop. It's much like taking drugs.
I think that you are correct about a great many people, but the good part is that YOU don't h ave to be one of them, you are free to not care at all one way or another.

God so LOVED the world.........................................WHY? How could He?

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