God so LOVED the world.........................................WHY? How could He? (page 5)

Terry

Terry

, I find your reasoning very interesting. It makes a lot of sense to me. This sentence struck me, "We are being saved from God himself and His wrath". That has been my feeling for a couple of years now but I hadn't succeeded in expressing it in so few words.

In short, God will see to it that you die (either through natural causes or direct attack at Armageddon) UNLESS.....(fill in the blank) takes place.

Theology fills in that BLANK_____.

Each denomination sees it (salvation) a different way.

How is it possible to see it so many different ways--- IF IT IS PLAINLY taught in Scripture?

It wouldn't be! It ISN'T "taught" so much as it evolved over time into a proto-explanation.

Sort of...."hmmm, we need this......so, we'll say this..... and make it work...."

Paul came along and sort of took Judaism's sacrificial scapegoat theology and worked it out. Like Stravinsky's notion of Music Theory. Paul "deduced it" from existing scripture.

By Paul making Judaism's sacrificial system LOGICAL IN A GREEK WAY (and pagan!) I believe this was the key to Christianity becoming so popular so fast.

Here is how I think the Pagan mind saw it:

1. We are scared of what DEITY can do to us so we better bribe Deity to look upon us favorably. We'll sacrifice really good stuff to Deity.

2.The more you sacrifice to DEITY the more favor you get.

3.God came down to Earth and allowed US to sacrifice HIM to HIMSELF and declares everybody a winner---no more "give to get" from God. It's all free from now on!!

On the surface this was all that was needed to get Christianity started.

But, then---logical minds prevailed and started asking really hard-to-answer questions.

If Deity wanted obedience and not sacrifice in the first place, why didn't being obedient IN GIVING SACRIFICE (on the altar) count for more than it did? (New sins required New offerings).

Paul provided the answer: GOD gave GOD as a sacrifice to GOD once and forever. All YOU have to do is BELIEVE it! Just believe the explanation I've just given you and you don't ever have to sacrifice anything on an altar again.

Well, um.......duh....okay! It's free!

You could, according to Paul, just view the living-a-godly-life as a dailly metaphorical (spiritual) sacrifice and skip the rest!

GRACE became an offer you can't refuse.

Ever read about Martin Luther's "aha!" moment of realization?

The moment Luther discovered GRACE was FREE (he didn't have to earn God's favor!) The split from the Church was inevitable!

"IT IS JUST YOU AND ME GOD!"

PSacramento

Terry...

Paul's view on Grace was very personal because Paul was saved by Grace.

Paul was a persecutor of christians, he had blood on his hands ( if not directly, indirectly) and yet Jesus chose to reveal himself to Paul and save Paul, what is that but Grace?

So it was logical that Paul would "formulate" Grace from his own personal experience and if grace worked for Him, it was for everyone, especialy those that believed ( Jesus revealed himself to Paul to make Paul a believer but those that believe without proof was,perhaps, "more blessed").

Sure Paul still payed for what he had done, he suffered in his serive to Jesus in countless ways, but his salvation happended on that day to Damascus.

Or at least Paul believed it did.

Terry

Paul's view on Grace was very personal because Paul was saved by Grace.

Paul was a persecutor of christians, he had blood on his hands ( if not directly, indirectly) and yet Jesus chose to reveal himself to Paul and save Paul, what is that but Grace?

This Paul story has to be swallowed whole or it won't go down.

Jesus spent years with his Apostles and disciples and they didn't seem to understand much.

Bingo! Jesus makes a supernatural appearance (wasn't he in heaven?) and reveals everything in excruciating detail to Paul who never spent five seconds with Him during his earthly ministry!

See the tension there?

You have to swallow Paul's story whole.

The men who remained behind who had worked along side Jesus and asked him thousands of questions pre-death were mostly in Jerusalem as mainstream leaders of Judeo-Christianity. Paul avoided going directly to them as long as he could. Paul avoided any area for his preaching work that had ALREADY been visited by Apostolic believers.

Why? Why did Paul concentrate on Pagans and Gentiles and avoid Apostolic theology?

You have to swallow Paul's story whole--that's why.

It didn't make that much sense to the remaining Apostles!

Paul doesn't spend five seconds on Jesus early life, his ministry, his conversations, his encounters or sayings. Paul is all about THEOLOGY as per Paul.

You have to swallow Paul's story whole.

Paul, as a murderer of those who Loved Jesus, (Stephen and others) presents WHAT SORT OF VALUE before God?

About the same sort of VALUE humans represent in the Grace Doctrine. Which is to say: no value at all.

Yet--Jesus appears to Paul. Paul has all the answers the Apostles are still groping for and are reluctant to accept.

You have to swallow Paul's story whole.

Remember this one fact: PAUL's letters came BEFORE the Gospels.

ldrnomo

A good friend of mine says he doesn't trust christians because they can beg for forgivness and still get their reward.

Terry

A good friend of mine says he doesn't trust christians because they can beg for forgivness and still get their reward.

Snooty bumper sticker:

Christian's aren't perfect--just forgiven!

nanner nanner boo boo.

PSacramento

Remember this one fact: PAUL's letters came BEFORE the Gospels.

The rest of your post leads to this part here and you can interpret it a few ways, one of them being that Paul was right and everyone else was wrong.

Or that The Gospels dealt with the life and teachings of Jesus and that Paul's letters were letters to the various home churches he helped set up anwere answers to theological questions.

Or that Paul was wrong and the Gospels are right, which matters IF the message was diferent, which it isn't.

Or we can simply view it as different people's interprertations of the same message accorind to their backgrounds.

PSacramento

A good friend of mine says he doesn't trust christians because they can beg for forgivness and still get their reward.

Hmmm, let me know how that works out for them.

Terry

Or we can simply view it as different people's interprertations of the same message accorind to their backgrounds.

You left out one:

Or that there was no "there" there. People just kept adding and adding and adding ideas according to taste......

PSacramento

Also a possibility Terry.

The writings of the apostolic fathers are an example of that.

startingover

Gladiator said

You could go mad - trying to make sense of the sin/grace debate.
It starts off with a false premise and then twists turns and contradicts. It has all been said before so I won't go ranting on.
People believe because they want to. When it no longer suits them they stop. It's much like taking drugs.
Nice synopsis of the situation!
Some on this board leave the JW's and then get involved with another group. I think that adds that extra ingredient which makes it all the harder to see where you may be wrong about your beliefs.

God so LOVED the world.........................................WHY? How could He?

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