What hope is there then?

by sayitsnotso 290 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • sayitsnotso
    sayitsnotso

    My replies stopped because I was no longer in front of a computer. Anway, I'll try to address some questions.

    How long have you been a JW?

    A long time. I don't want to get into specifics. Suffice it to say - many years.

    You notice that it's talking about IDOL SACRIFICES? That whole paragraph is related to things used and for idol worship.

    What about the part about fornication? Couldn't this verse mean that eating blood is as morally wrong as idolatry or fornication? However, I do agree that the lack of such a prohibition in the 10 commandments and in Jesus words is puzzling. There certainly is room for the possiblity that this is being understood by JWs incorrectly. This scripture though, leaves room for the possiblity that such are wrong though. It all depends on how it's understood.

    What Gives YOU ro THEM the right to say that LIVING and SAVING a life will DAMAGE a realtionship with GOD ??
    God wants love, NOT SACRIFICE !

    What about "To obey is better than a sacrifice?" - 1 Sam 15:22 If one disobeys God to save their life wouldn't this damage his relationship with God? Are you saying all the christans that chose to die instead of renounce their faith to the Romans died in vain? That it would have been okay to do so since life is more important? If Jehovah prohibts misuse of blood today, how is using it to save life any different?

    Can you admit that the WTS was wrong about their predictions about the end of the world?

    Yes I can admit that. It's obvious isn't it?

    What does the Bible say about those who "best guess" prophecy? Let's look:
    the Watchtower Society...didn't give 'best guess estimates'... they said, in God's name when to expect it.. and it didn't come in the time frame they said to expect it. So yes, that makes them liars.

    Where does the WTS claim to be an inspired prophet? Please show me, otherwise how can they be a 'false prohet'? Nathan wrongly instructed David to build the house for Jehovah's worship. He was prophet, yet this false statement didn't make him guilty of being a false prophet.

    JWs have an interest in the last days prophecies and present evidence that seems to show fulfillment of those prophecies. As regards saying that 1914 would be the end of this system, or 1975, or any other date. Yes they were wrong. The apostles were wrong in thinking Jesus would restore the Kingdom in their times. Jonah prophecied that Nineveh would be destroyed in forty days, yet that didn't happen. All these examples illustrate the humans can have wrong ideas about something. It doesn't make them false prophets or liars.

    JWs have been keeping watchful. Matt 24:42 says "Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is comming." Having a strong desire to be watchful obviously has lead to warnings about what might happen at given dates when these dates seem to correlate to either biblical prohecy or biblical concepts (as in 6 days = 6000 years). This is what some of you are claiming makes them guilty of Lying? Lying implies purposeful deceit. Are you saying they are guilty of purposeful, not accidental, deceit? If so, on what basis?

    John 6:48-58 (pay CLOSE attention to verses 50, 51, and 53, particularly the words "anyone"... and "Unless")

    Your implying these verses are talking about the lords evening meal specifically. Yet, this wasn't established until about a year later. So doesn't this allow the possiblity that these words could be more general than lords-evening-meal-specific? The context shows he was talking about his flesh and blood being comparable to manna (I'd like to note there is no reference to wine by the way), but was greater because unlike manna that sustains one for a short time, his death makes everlasting life possible.

    now has ever met who hasn't experienced aging and death.
    Imagine a world where no one ages or dies.

    That is true everyone experiences aging and death. But please tell me how these things add happiness to ones life. Don't we all want to live forever if that was possible?

    Okay, the idea about reproduction being an issue is valid. But the bible says God will satisfy the desire of every living thing. So if intamacy and child rearing is desire, wouldn't you think he would satisfy that as the bible does not condemn such things in the proper context? What about the posibility of making those desires no longer be desires for people? There could be many different ways that those two things could be brought about that would allow for everlasting life. And if God makes a decision in the future that would be displeasing to us currently, who are we to say whether this is right or not? This is why my original question of hope is a big one for me and whether or not God exists. To me it seems those that oppose JWs either a) don't believe God exists and/or b) don't believe that God meant for humans to live forever on earth.

  • tec
    tec

    I haven't read all of these pages, whew, but I wanted to give my personal opinion on this point, if I may:

    JWs have an interest in the last days prophecies and present evidence that seems to show fulfillment of those prophecies. As regards saying that 1914 would be the end of this system, or 1975, or any other date. Yes they were wrong. The apostles were wrong in thinking Jesus would restore the Kingdom in their times. Jonah prophecied that Nineveh would be destroyed in forty days, yet that didn't happen. All these examples illustrate the humans can have wrong ideas about something. It doesn't make them false prophets or liars.

    They don't seemed to have learned anything about this though. You would think that they might pay closer attention to the scriptures saying that no one knows the dates concerning the end; not the angels nor even the Son, but only the Father. (Matthew 24: 36) Yes, we're told to keep watch... but after so many mistakes, you would think they would stop setting specific times for people to put their hopes in. Perhaps they should follow Paul's example also - when he spoke about unbelieving spouses, he specifically said that it was him speaking and not God, but that he thought he had the mind of God. He was very careful about relaying something that God had not told him. (1st Corinthians 7 :12-39) Does the WTS make such a distinction, specifically and spelled out?

    They should, because the people within believe and do everything they are told - as is expected of them.

    And please tell me how an outsider could possibly believe that the WTS has the only source of the truth (because they do teach that they, and only they, are God's representatives in teaching the truth, yes?) when the dates and predictions have not come true? Sounds like false prophecy to anyone outside. How can it possibly be their fault for not listening or believing - and yet if they do not listen and believe then they die at Armageddon, never to be resurrected, yes?

    They might not be outright lying. But they are certainly speaking presumptuously and irresponsibly, considering the authority they wield, and the trust given them.

    Tammy

  • yknot
    yknot

    ......om-goodness.......

    I got to page 7........

    I saw the original 'what hope is there' and I think it has been answered several times over ....

    The ultimate answer: None of us really knows what happens........ but there is lots of speculation..

    ______________________________________________________________________________________________

    I am curious what has brought you to our little corner of the interweb?

    What are you hoping to find or achieve?

    You mentioned you have been a JW for several years.......I was wondering if you could tell me what exactly the 'truth' is?

  • cyberjesus
    cyberjesus

    Oh Brother! this is like a District Convention. Fourteen pages in one day?

    If it smells like a JW, looks like a Jw, replies like a JW, and writes like a JW is most likely a JW :-)

    Five must read books for you:

    Crisis of Conscience

    Combating Mind Control

    The Bible unearthed

    Who wrote the bible

    Jesus Interrupted

    Reading in that order it will take you 5 weeks. then go back to the meetings and conventions reading whatever you want and then come back and tell us what you think. Life will change for you and your loved ones. Remember, a lot of us were where you are right now.

  • sacolton
    sacolton
    Where does the WTS claim to be an inspired prophet? Please show me, otherwise how can they be a 'false prohet'?

          "Jehovah's Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus' second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. Because of this, some have called them false prophets. Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions 'in the name of Jehovah.' Never did they say, 'These are the words of Jehovah.'" Awake! 1993 Mar. 22 p.4

        This is incorrect. The Watchtower makes it clear that what it contains are 'the words of Jehovah".

          "Today, Jehovah provides instruction by means of "the faithful steward." Pay Attention to Yourself and to All The Flock p.13

          "commissioned to serve as the mouthpiece and active agent of Jehovah commission to speak as a prophet in the name of Jehovah..." The Nations Shall Know that I am Jehovah" - How? pp.58-62

          "...commission to speak as a "prophet" in His name...." Watchtower 1972 Mar. 15 p.189
  • sacolton
    sacolton

    The Bible condemns false prophesying in God's name. The Watchtower Society notes that predicting a date for the end of the world amounts to false prophesy, if it does not come true.

      "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an "end to the world," even announcing a specific date?. Yet nothing happened. The "end" did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing? ? Missing from such people were God's truths and the evidence that he was guiding and using them." Awake! 1968 Oct. 8 p.23

    It is ironic that the Society condemns other religions in such manner when it has spent decade's actively predicting wrong 'end of the world' dates that did not occur, such as 1914 being the year for Armageddon and 1925 being the start of the earthly resurrection.

    The Watchtower Society goes as far as to call itself a prophet of God, comparing themselves to the prophets of old. This is a significant assertion when compared to the accuracy of Watchtower doctrine and the predictions about future dates.

  • sacolton
    sacolton

    1954 Court Transcript of Legal counsel for the Watchtower Society Haydon C. Covington’s testimony before the attorney for the Ministry of Labour and National Service included the following ...

    Q: Assume from me that it was promulgated as authoritative by the Society that Christ's Second Coming was in 1874?

    A: Taking that assumption as a fact, it is a hypothetical statement.

    Q: That was the publication of false prophesy? A: That was the publication of a false prophesy, it was a false statement or an erronious statement in fulfilment of a prophesy that was false or erroneous.
    Q. Back to the point now. A false prophesy was promulgated?

    A: I agree that.

    Q. It had to be accepted by Jehovah's Witnesses? A. That is correct.
    Q. So that what is published as the truth today by the Society may have to be admitted to be wrong in a few years?

    A. We have to wait and see.

    Q. And in the meantime the body of Jehovah's Witnesses have been following error? A. They have been following misconstructions on the Scriptures.

    Q. Error?

    A. Well, error.
    Q. Unity at all costs?

    A. Unity at all costs, because we believe and are sure that Jehovah God is using our organisation, the governing body of our organisation to direct it, even though mistakes are made from time to time.

    Q. And unity based upon an enforced acceptance of false prophecy? A. That isconceded to be true.

    Q. And the person who expressed his view, as you say, that it was wrong, and was disfellowshipped, would be in breach of the Covenant, if he was baptized?

    A. That is correct.
  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff

    Points well made, Sac.

    Sayitsnotso - Welcome to the forum. You will soon be addicted. You want to believe you have the 'truth'. So did I. Then Todo pulled back the curtain.

    Todo = Crisis of Conscience written by Raymond Franz.

    Both Raymond and I followed the yellow brick road for most of a lifetime. But when the great OZ had gone missing, hope was still there, only in a different form. Hope does not have to be tied to eternity. That is a misguided notion, used by many religions as a trap door. After all, if they have no dangling carrot, who would fall for the tricks they offer?

    Namaste

    Jeff

  • Darth plaugeis
    Darth plaugeis

    Is this a MadJW thread?

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin
    You notice that it's talking about IDOL SACRIFICES? That whole paragraph is related to things used and for idol worship.

    What about the part about fornication? Couldn't this verse mean that eating blood is as morally wrong as idolatry or fornication? However, I do agree that the lack of such a prohibition in the 10 commandments and in Jesus words is puzzling. There certainly is room for the possiblity that this is being understood by JWs incorrectly. This scripture though, leaves room for the possiblity that such are wrong though. It all depends on how it's understood.

    My reply: No Sayitsnotso. Fornication here is referring to marriage to close relatives- considered fornication under the Law but ok to the gentiles. Refer to Leviticus 17-18 and you will see that this Acts account is simply asking the gentiles to adhere to those guidelines in Lev 17-18 that resident aliens had to adhere to in Israel when they were a nation. In fact, they are listed in Acts in the same order as in Leviticus...but explained in detail in Lev.

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