by Lily Pie 272 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Debator... I am not trying to be rude or confrontational... but concider.. what scripture requires you to "turn in service time"... ? in the same way there is no scripture that asks you to "count time" in a formal ministry, there is no scripture that asks you to "count time" doing other things that are REQUIRED of christians.. just wondering if you can see the comparison...?
@Dan.. I would pay cold hard cash to see the looks on their faces...
Debator/Reniaa..
It really is time for you to see,how full of Shit you are..
Straight from the Bible..
John 30:34-44
34 And Jesus, when he came out, saw much people, and was moved with compassion toward them,
because they were as sheep not having a shepherd: and he began to teach them many things.
Dear Debator
Very few of the flock engage faith vs works the way you are, and see the picture you are starting to describe. Sincere congratulations - it is a real struggle in the beginning as many here will confirm. I say this in good faith - trusting that you are indeed sincere and genuine.
If you feel ready to dig deeper into the 5 solas, please do the following and let us know the outcome soonest.
May Jehovah God grant you the faith to "see" and to protect your mind and heart from Satan's poisonous, burning missiles (thoughts that contradict or obscure the 5 solas, and the evidence of general ignorance and insidious contempt for them amongst elders and the flock).
Just in case you're wondering, our family left after 4 generations, and 4 decades, once we like Luther, "independently" came to see (discern) the 5 solas in the Bible. And yes we admit the transition from religion, Gnosticism and "legalism" to genuine Christian faith involves passing through the valley of death - it is painful to face the facts that one's conscience thrusts upon those desirous of the light.
Warmest Christian greetings and blessings
Fernando
©2010
PS - some references that may be useful
For those curious, here are the 5 solas. Look them up for the meanings. They are deep and rich. Wonderful...
1. Sola Scriptura- By scripture alone
2. Sola fide - By Faith alone
3. Sola gratia - by Grace alone
4. Solus Christus - Christ alone
5. Soli Deo Gloria - Glory to God alone
Dear Brotherdan
They are indeed deep and rich - I agree wholeheartedly.
I am tempted to string them into a single sentence.
"Salvation (imputed eternal life), sanctification (imputed holiness), justification (imputed righteousness), and forgiveness (imputed sinlessness) are by genuine FAITH and GRACE alone, in CHRIST alone, and the GLORY OF GOD alone, according to SCRIPTURE alone".
Of course Satan the Devil and his legalistic minions are incensed at the glaring omissions from the Biblical chain and "plan of salvation":
Greetings and blessings
Fernando
©2010
If You truly have Faith that Jehovah is our our Almighty and One true God and that the message we have been given to preach by his son saves lifes then why would preaching be a chore?
Same old tired drivel that only the preaching work is paramont for salvation, works...works...works...
Nowhere in the following scriptures does the bible say that the preaching work is the only spiritual gift recognized by God as having any salvational value. The bible I read says there are many spiritual gifts manifesting in the body of Christ. Why doesn't the bOrg agree with the bible?
1 Corinthians chapters 12-14
1 Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. 2 You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, [a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues. [b] 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
12 The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by [c] one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
14 Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues [d] ? Do all interpret? 31 But eagerly desire [e] the greater gifts.
And now I will show you the most excellent way.
Romans chapter 12
1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual [a] act of worship. 2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. 4 Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his [b] faith. 7 If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8 if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.
Ephesians chapter 4
1 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
7 But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8 This is why it [a] says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men." [b] 9 (What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions [c] ? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.
1 Peter chapter 4
1 Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin. 2 As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. 3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4 They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation, and they heap abuse on you. 5 But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray. 8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 9 Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling. 1 0 Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms. 11 If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God. If anyone serves, he should do it with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.
Hi fernando
But the Bible isn't a list I tick off and make sure I cover them all. A mantra I say out loud. It is a real living message to me as a Christian and worshiper of Jehovah our one true God alone through his son Jesus. I don't do Christianity by numbers but by my heart, my life and every part of my understanding.
Your list sounds like you think the reward is by works? Do you make sure you cover the 5 "solas" so you can claim righteousness?
IMO The witnesses are the only Christians that do confess Jesus as Jehovah's son in this time. All others have Jesus down as Almighty God and not as the one through whom we reach Jehovah his Father Almighty God and recognising that Jehovah himself raised his son from the dead.
And that whole list of what you reject? you may as well just throw out Jesus and the apostles and all they set in place for our protection. no elders? how can you quote titus and even say "no elders" seriously? no congregations? A Christianity that rejects all that I read in the bible is something that holds no appeal to me. however sincere you are.
Rejecting authority established through God's son is foolishness.
ahh but my dear debator you have to understand the orginial elder arangment. The jews had elders that served in the community.. that arrangment extended then to the congregation. They were not the overlords that they have become today.. they were mature men who were there to help
you may as well just throw out Jesus
That's funny cuz the GB/FDS already has.
Hi Mrs jones
Don't put words in my mouth I feel about preaching the way Paul did and it is about loving others beyond yourself. A sacrifice of time and selfish pursuits to do God's will and bring his message to those in need. Seeking out the honest-hearted ones.
1 Corinthians 9:16
Yet when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, for I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!
Romans 10:14-15 (New International Version)
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" [a]
