*Grace* According to JW's. Your thoughts will be appreciated. (page 18)

Deputy Dog

designs

That's what you call avoiding the issues............

Any other believers in 'Grace' want to tackle the real issues and the real message.

You are the one creating the strawman. The bible doesn't say love me or else.

designs

Syl, Deputy Dog-

Of course that's the obvious message. Deconstruct the argument, go in reverse, what happens to the 'unsaved' and those who reject the standard socalled 'christian message'.

Remember your object courses in college and how to examine all of the components of an issue.

snowbird

what happens to the 'unsaved' and those who reject the standard socalled 'christian message'

.

They benefit from His grace the same as believers.

Remember your object courses in college and how to examine all of the components of an issue.

Of course.

Read Revelation v-e-r-y carefully and take p-a-r-t-i-c-u-l-a-r note of who goes to the lake of fire.

Syl

snowbird

LOL.

I'm not a "good" anything.

I'm simply a believer in the Father and Jesus of Nazareth.

I'm neither gullible nor naive.

I know that some people would rather die for all times than surrender to God's grace.

So be it.

Syl

Deputy Dog

designs

Of course that's the obvious message.

To an unbeliever.

I have consistently said faith inspires works and not the other way round! The underserved kindness we get off Jehovah is not by our works. It's understanding that having faith means you simply have no choice but to do works, it is your faith that pushes you to do them. If I breathe in then I breathe out, that is similar to how Faith and works are linked.

If You truly have Faith that Jehovah is our our Almighty and One true God and that the message we have been given to preach by his son saves lifes then why would preaching be a chore?

I'll tell you why I and probably many other JWs consider it a chore. I don't know where you reside, but I'm in the States, in the northeast. Most of the religious people in my city are Christian of various denominations. We have some Jews, some Muslims, Humanists, Atheists, etc.. We have it all, but mostly Christians. So when myself and others go out in field service, who are we going to come across for the most part? Other Christians. Doctrinally speaking we have some differences obviously, but for the most part our beliefs are the same. You ever hear the phrase, "preaching to the choir?" Thats essentially what we do when we're out in field service. Our work is more irritating to others rather than lifesaving, rarely is it comforting to those we meet, and we may possibly even be guilty of judging. Now you might ask how is it judgemental? By us supporting the WT's view that all religions are false, including Christian denominations, we're judging and condemning the public for not believing in what we believe. If a person tells me he's Christian, and has faith in Jesus, who am I judge him? Yet thats exactly what I do when I attempt a conversation blocker stating something along the lines of, "you pray the Lord's prayer, right", as I try to engage him with the purpose of undermining his beliefs. Make no mistake about it, thats what our main objective is in field service, to undermine other people's beliefts, all because we judge them as not having truth. (Matt 7:1-5) Lets talk about truth while we're at it.

What I find particulary atrocious about this is that the differences that JWs have with other Christian denominations tend to be over matters that are grey and subject to debate and criticizm. The accuracy of JW beliefs isn't what you'd call certain or truth, as evidenced by some of the excellant posts and threads on this forum. Not to mention the WT has had to altar the belief system of JWs NOT because the light got brighter, but because they were dead wrong. There's no such thing as a true religion, when what we consider true turns out to be inaccurate, and our leadership has to adjust their position as a result. They do this all the while condemning other faiths as being false, even when the WT adjusts its doctrine to something that other Christian denominations were and are already teaching. A good example is the feelers WT is throwing out there regarding the 144,000 and whether the number is symbolic or specific. Time will tell if that doctrine was another error as opposed to truth.

Now you agree with me that works are a result of our faith. From what the Bible tells about Jesus, he not only was concerned with His father's name and promoting the kingdom as a secure hope to look forward to, but he also took the time to assist those that are poor, and those that were sick. Those activities are viewed upon poorly by the WT. This mentality is present even in local congregations as many congregations don't even take care of their own. The exception would be in medical related matters where blood could become an issue. Typicall though, in the GB's opinion the only thing JWs need to do or should want to do, is continue to preach no matter how ineffective it may be. What's happened Debator, is the average JW isn't preaching because they want to, but because they're pressured encouraged to do so. The average JW sees the lack of results from field service, and it goes against the logic of anyone with common sense to continue in a work so ineffective, especially considering we're often preaching to the choir. So lets say a JW decides he/she is going to go volunteer in a neighborhood cleanup, or a food bank, or maybe a walk-a-thon or race for a cure. There's no scripture that would condemn these activities. However, if it became common knowledge what this JW was participating in such activities, at the very least they would be looked upon poorly. Worst case scenario, an Elder may do some shepharding, especially if this JWs volunteering caused them to miss meetings or field service occasionally. So at that point I have to ask, what happened to a person's conscience motivating their actions? Ohh, thats right, the average JW doesn't have a bible trained conscious because all of their decisions are made by the WT. Even when a JW wakes up from the stupor they've been in for a long time, they realize that making their own decisions isn't to be taken likely due to the rest of the congregation still being in a stupor. Its like waking up in the film 28 Days Later where a bunch of zombies are running around seeking to infect nonzombies.

So when its all said and done, for the most part JWs don't perform their activities from the heart. I used to believe we did, but no more. JWs do what they've been trained and pressured to do. Its not from the heart. I cant judge all of them, but I can say as a born in that more than a few fall under this category.

Mad Sweeney

Great post, misery.

To those who believe in universal grace, what then is the point of being Christian at all?

tec

You know, the criminal next to Christ did acknowledge that he was dying as he deserved, and he did also ask that Christ remember him. The first shows he was no hypocrite, and the second showed that his faith was more than an acknowledgement of Christ's existence, but also belief in His mercy, and enough that he would ask to be remembered.

So his faith in a sense did have works. Works that came from the heart, and not works that he thought to earn salvation with. The thing is, no one has the right or even the capability of saying this person doesn't have enough faith because their works are not to my standard. It is a personal matter between them and God.

I also do not think that grace is a license to sin. It can and has been used as such by some, but that does not diminish either its power or the love behind it.

Tammy

Deputy Dog

Tammy

So his faith in a sense did have works.

You're right. What the criminal did have that JWs never do, is an unconditional promise and assurance of paradice.

Grace According to JW's. Your thoughts will be appreciated.

Deputy Dog

designs

snowbird

designs

snowbird

Deputy Dog

miseryloveselders

Mad Sweeney

tec

Deputy Dog

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