*Grace* According to JW's. Your thoughts will be appreciated.

by Lily Pie 272 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  possible-san

  debator.

  Since it seemed you have investigated the original language of the Bible carefully, I respected you this time.
  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/200266/1/Grace-According-to-JWs-Your-thoughts-will-be-appreciated

  But, most contents of your post are "copies & paste."

  For instance, probably the first materials are from here.
  http://onlytruegod.org/defense/kharis_undeservedkindness.htm

  And the sentences of the second half are from "Wikipedia."
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charity_(practice)

  The sentences written by you are only 2 or three lines.
  Why don't you show links/address?

  I feel that your style/manner of writing is "insincere/dishonest."
  
  I advise you to correct that "style/manner of writing" of yours.
  For you are an active Jehovah's Witness.

  possible
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  OUTLAW

  I think it is sad if People see Grace/undeserved kindness as a license to to sin or not to obey God......debator/Reniaa

  The word Grace was replaced by Undeserved Kindness,by the WBT$..

  So until then it was a Licence to Sin?..

  Where do you come up with,this Endless BullShit?..

  Changing the word did`nt help the WBT$`s huge Pedophile Problem..

  The WBT$ has given Pedophiles a "Licence to Molest Children"..

  I have no Idea where you got your "Licence to be Stupid"..

  ..........................OUTLAW
• 

  Hoping4Change

  If this is true

  "faith" comes first and produces "works" by it's existence

  then why does the organization emphisize, push, coerce and harangue its members to 'get out in service' "or else"? The thought conveyed here (as one would think it would be) is that one's 'faith' motivates one to engage in 'works'; there should be no other motivation - and especially not an "if I do <x> for my works, certainly I will receive Jehovah's blessing" or " I better get my hours in or else I will be counselled or looked down upon by others in the congregation". The very setup in the organization 'steals' (or at the very least interferes with/obstructs) the ability of an individual to be truly inspired by their faith to be motivated to engage in good 'works'. It becomes a sort of contest if 'men' are watching, recording, judging and commenting on another's enaging in (or not) the practice of 'works'. Shouldn't individuals be left to their own to allow faith to build and motivate on its' own and allow Jehovah to see into each individuals heart as to their motivation or lack thereof for 'works'?

  Just wondering.
• 

  PSacramento

  Its funny that, in the NT we have the actual works that Jesus himself seems to deem "worthy":

  The Sheep and the Goats

  31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

  34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

  37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

  40 “The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’

  41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

  44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

  45 “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

  46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

  Of course these very acts are acts tha Grace "compells" people to perform for no other reason that out of love.
• 

  Chalam

  brotherdan When I was a JW I had NO idea what Grace was. Debator's view was the one we all had. We THOUGHT that people used the concept of "Grace" to justify sin. How wrong we all were! Grace is NOT an excuse to sin. If someone wants to view it as an excuse, then they really are showing themselves to NOT be taking advantage of the Grace of God.

  Agreed.

  Grace comes not only by knowledge but also experience. Personally, I am experiencing God's grace more and more, that after all is the Christian walk.

  Paul has long put the JW notion of grace being a license to sin in the garbage bin.

  Romans 6:1-2 (New International Version)

  Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ

  1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

  Romans 6:15 (New International Version)

  Slaves to Righteousness

  15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! BTW BD, did you get my message? Blessings, Stephen
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  brotherdan

  Yeah, Stephen, I did. I'm responding now.
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  Chalam

  Many thanks :) Gonna be out for a few hours but look forward to reading it.

  Blessings,

  Stephen
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  debator

  I am not going to quibble about which wording sounds nicest. I do no pick my translation for poetic content but accuracy in translation. Since "Grace" has lost a lot of it's original meaning and can encompass many meanings (however nice) these days and also being used as a noun. Then I find the greater accuracy of "underserved Kindness" to be more compelling.

  My thoughts were on Paul's words when I talked about grace not being a license to sin.

  Romans 6:15-16 (New International Version)

  15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? Here Paul talks about being slaves to obedience. Does it sound better coming from him? Faith motivates a person to Obey God this is some of the works expressed by Faith. Hi lily The 1000 years is from Revelation. Witnesses do not ignore this teaching from the bible.

  Revelation 20:4
  ..... They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20:3
  He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
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  brotherdan

  Debator, since you bring up revelation, could you explain to me what the 7 trumpet blasts in Revelation means, according to Jehovah's Witnesses? You don't have to go through each one specifically. Could you just give me an overall idea?
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  debator

  Hi possible San

  I did not feel quoting the whole article was needed for just getting meanings and the articles were simply quoing named sources so I cannot see how you can say this is dishonest? There was no pretense that I am a greek lexicon.