by brotherdan 185 Replies latest watchtower bible
I think it is wrong to blame God
You can blame him if he orders the death of children and the rape of women, which according the bible, he did.
If he is leaving Humans to demonstrate that they can not rule without him, why the F*** does he keep interfering?
Debator seem to miss the obvious point that if i "reject" god, i dont expect him to "save my children", because i just dont think he exist.
I can, though, assume God exist and see if i derive contradictions in eg. the old testemony, just as debator can assume other Gods exist and point out cruelty in other non-christian religions. Its a method of argument that has been known since the ancient greek.
Caliber, the argument has several problems. For starters, you require "objective moral values". I dont postulate i have objective moral values, I just have a bag of things i find evil and good and which i operate within. This is things like Rape, Murder, Generosity, etc. Before you even have an argument, you need a definition of these objective moral values.
Secondly, why is God required for objective moral values (which i dont know what is)? He is certainly not required to understand why murder, rape or generocity is wrong/good - evolution and game theory can handle these very well! - and if we take those away, what is left which is objective and cannot be explained through biology? Furthermore, what if God was 80% cruel and 20% good and a bit manipulative, would we notice?
As i see it, you have not defined the central concept (objective moral values), nor have you provided evidence for premise 1 and 2.
Hi bohm
I think you are reading a lot into what I didn't say. I did not mention other gods at all.
Stalin was an Atheist that did not stop him being sadistically cruel leader that killed thousands.
Men often use religion and God (any god) as an excuse to do attrocities but the choice to do them is on their own heads.
In the past ignorance could be claimed but not any more. We know exactly what we are doing when we send a bomb into a city full of people.
The old testament arguments are always weird since they take no account of the fact that the whole of humankind was extremely violent take the example of Jacob's sons that killed a whole tribe because of the rape of their sister. It was a "kill or be killed" time. The philistines would have thanked you for mercy they'd have just killed you instead.
They needed the basic laws given to Moses simply to bring them to some understanding of basic morality and humanity that was so lost to them. Jesus also came and gave us a deeper understanding so we became Christians progressing beyond the jews bloodthirsty asking for the messiah to kill all the Romans for them. The Bible is a warts and all look at humanity it takes some hard reading but ultimately makes us face upto our own decisions as humans and our own imperfection.
The old testament arguments are always weird since they take no account of the fact that the whole of humankind was extremely violent
Interesting point Debator, I thought that the human race was much better in those days, than it is now, in this "time of the end". They were, afterall, closer to perfection and Satan was not confined to the Earth - in the way he is now since being ousted from heaven.
Also wouldn't a loving god his instruct his dedicated nation to be different from the those terrible nations around about, not imitate them?
Hi cantleave
What is more evil a man who kills in ignorance for survival? or a man who knows the people he is killing are fully as worthy to live as themselves. What really makes us more evil now is we know exactly what we are doing when we kill another person, or allow another person to starve to death, allowing money and riches to be our goal instead of humanity.
I truly think it is our greater knowledge and evilness despite this that condemns us more now.
Romans 2:14-16 (New International Version)
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the DAY when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
Debator, Its pretty damn hard to rationalize that it was okay for God to order them to commit warcrimes since they had not figured out for themselves that the very things God ordered them to do was barbaric. It just dont make any sence.
Do we really understand justice from God's view unless we are God
The Finger: No, but there are two options as i see it:
Either one accept on blind faith God is allways good and will never do wrong. Any wrongness is just because i dont get the big picture. Its a slippery slope: God wants 99% of all people to die in armageddon? Its a good idea! God have a special torture chamber for unbelievers where they will suffer in all eternity? Its a good idea! God want his "messiah" to sleep with your wife? Its a good idea! God want you to strap a bomb and blow up people? Its a good idea! etc.
Personally i think the above are terrible ideas! But if God is allways good, how am i to object to him having a special torture chamber?
Alternatively, we should arrive at the conclusion that God is good by looking at what he has done: Create all life? Good. Help various biblical characters? Good. Order genocides? Bad. Want me to live eternal life? Good. you get the idea.
Im going with option 2, and i find so many contradictions in the christian Gods actions that i dont see any reason why i should pick him over someone else, like Buddah (I think Buddah order less genocides).
If we accept God exists we cant judge God as bad as we have never known really what good is?
The Finger: Okay, so what if you really believe God exist and is real, but your priest suddenly tell you to strap a bomb to your chest and blow people up. Your conscience object strongly: "They are innocent!", but who are you to judge God? Do you really think you truly know what is good?
Or how about the doctrine of hell. Everyone should object strongly to the idea that loving jesus and hell are compatible moral ideas. But by your argument, i should suspend my feeling that hell is immoral and only look at it scriptually, right?
