by brotherdan 185 Replies latest watchtower bible
caliber:
1. If God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist.
Sam Harris is one author who disagrees with this statement. His new book deals with this topic.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/199918/1/Sam-Harris-New-Book-The-Moral-Landscape
caliber:
I've only just begun reading his new book. He believes Science can demonstrate that there are indeed "bad" things, defined as things which work against the well-being of humans and animals. He does not, however, think science will point to a single correct path. Rather, on this "landscape" there will be many "peaks", or different ways of doing things that can promote the futher well-being of man and animals.
He offers criticism of his scientific peers who think science does not comment on morality. Further, he calls out many atheists for thinking that all cultures are equal (moral relativism), when science can tell us quite clearly that some practices are indeed bad, as they do not promote the well-being of human beings. (femal circumcision, sanctioned rape, etc.)
He criticizes religious fundamentalists for using their religion to support activities which do not promote human and animal well-being.
convince you that the statement below is
false !
Let me add that I've only begun thinking about this topic, so I'm definitely not trying to dogmatically refute your statement above. Rather, I just want to state that it's not a universally accepted idea.
Caliber said:
1. If God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist.
2. Objective moral values do exist.
3. Therefore, God exists.
But using this line of argumentation and reasoning then the reverse could be presumably argued as well:
1. If God exist, immorality shouldn't exist.
2. Immorality does exist.
3. Therefore, God doesn't exist.
And going back to your first point about God and objective moral values, never rule out the inner most desire of a species and that is self preservation. Even if there was no God, the human species would create laws in the interest of preservation,such as against murder,genocide etc.
But just wanted to add it's good to see you posting on JWN Caliber. There seemed to be a time for a while there that I didn't see you posting. Hope all is well with you and your family.
It doesn't make sense for a creator god to foreknow, or use foreknowledge in a few cases where he decides to kill children, then take them up to heaven. Surely it would have been far more important to use foreknowledge when he started the human race with Adam and Eve. He could have chosen to see what would happen in the near future and thought, 'You know what, I think I'll save mankind a whole lot of suffering and take away Adam's right to procreate'. It means that god is just arbitrarily picking at random those he decides to kill, (children or not).
The more I started to leave off reading my bible, the less circular conundrums/aguments were whizzing round my head.
The more we get to understand about time/space and the universe, the more I think that Jehovah 'foreknowing' things is inevitable... I won't say is a foregone conclusion...
Brotherdan - Once I awakened from the JW mind control cult, I then understood how strong belief has NOTHING to do with whether or not something is true. I believed the JW doctrine completely, and thought that everything they said was true. I carried a card in my wallet that said "let me die" to the doctors, if I needed a blood transfusion. That's how strongly I believed it. Then when my eyes opened, I realized how a fantasy can seem like reality.
I then quickly realized that there are 1.5 BILLION muslims who KNOW that Allah is in the sky. They know this...definitely...just as strongly as I knew JW was the truth. They are willing to die for it. But these feelings have nothing to do with whether or not any of it is true.
Once I made these connections, I quickly understood that I believed somebody lives in the sky and loves me because my parents taught me that and because most people around me believe that. Especially in my area, as I live in the Southern United STates.
I found myself much happier when I took all the emotions and beliefs out of it and started looking at facts. Life makes so much more sense now.
Just my personal thoughts. LeavingWT is my brother, by the way.
:-)
-MF31-
So, your basic argument is 'God giveth, and God taketh away' then?
Couldn't the same reasoning be applied to why he just allows millions of African and Asian children to die of the horrors of starvation every year also?
GOD: "These children are destined to grow up and be 'pagans', so I will just let them die excruciating deaths so that they can just live with me in heaven before that happens."
Maybe God should charge over to Africa and just kill them outright now, especially before the Christian missionaries can feed them and maybe allow them to turn into adults [most of whom won't convert]. If he did so by clearly identifying his 'people', he could just send them in with swords and weapons of destruction and kill them like he did in the OT. I'm sure it would be clear to observers what a 'favor' God was doing for these kids.
These sorts of arguments justify God as a monster, and his followers as convoluted and conflicted worshipers willing to pull a mask over the monster and pretend otherwise.
Wow. How could an Atheist not be convinced by this sort of reasoning? Thank you for sharing.
Jeff
I think it is wrong to blame God for the actions of mankind. You cannot reject God on one hand then expect him to save your children on the other. Freewill is the acceptance that the choices you make effect not just you but your offspring too.
God will and does lay done further hope for those that die (including children) but it is despite what mankind has done to them not because "God needs another flower for his heavenly Garden" which viewpoint Dan seems to be heading towards which simply isn't supported Biblically.
