When God breaks his own laws

by Nickolas 111 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  SweetBabyCheezits

  I do however apologize that I made you feel like you're arguing with a JW family, I meant no disrespect nor attempted to drudge up bad memories/feelings from your personal experiences.

  Annnd now I just feel bad for that comment. Dude, no need to apologize. I didn't mean it like that at all. I just meant that my parents could rationalize away ANY negative thing that I showed them about the Society and sometimes I feel like Christians are able to do the same with the bible and Yahweh.

  I guess what breaks down to it is this, it's a matter of one's own faith as well as one's own personal experiences.

  I respect your attitude, Yiz. Someday I hope I can mellow out like Gladiator.
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  PSacramento

  Hi, PSac.

  I think my first question is WHY do those people believe such things to be reasonable?

  Do you not agree that a Muslim's reason, though based on false presupposition, would still seem completely valid to him? Is there any way he might be able to identify the flaws in his reasoning (without, say, any significant knowledge of the bible or Christiantity)?

  I have asked this of a few muslim friends of mine that are obviously not extremissts and they said, basically that the reason THEY don't advocate violence is because, from THEIR reasoning, the Quran doesn't advocate it, when I mention the parts that "seem" to, they said those parts are antiquated and written during a time of violence and upheavel and should not be applied in todays day and age.

  They got this view from the Quran and not from the NT or anywhere else because the majority of the Quran speaks NOT of violence but of hoe to lve your life in the correct way and not harming other is part of it.

  SO why do SOME focus on the "bad parts"?

  Because they choose to, because for them hate is more of a driving force than love, intolerance more of a driving for than tolerance.

  And they are, unfortunately, not alone.
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  tec

  SO why do SOME focus on the "bad parts"?

  Because they choose to, because for them hate is more of a driving force than love, intolerance more of a driving for than tolerance.

  Absolutely. For the same reason that JW's focus more on Paul's early thoughts of Df'ing, rather than Jesus' words of forgiving a brother up to 77 times (infinitely, really). Same reason they institute such a system of conditional forgiveness, rather than listening to the parable of the prodigal son. Its what is inside a person (light or darkness) that comes out of them.

  Tammy
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  SweetBabyCheezits

  PSac and Tammy, first of all, please don't take my comments here as angry or aggressive.

  I only brought up the Islamic faith because you no doubt realize the Muslim believes his reasoning is solid that the Koran is from the creator and Allah is god. I had no intention of getting into a debate on whether Islam is a violent religion. Here was the question I wanted to pose:

  SBC: Is there any way he might be able to identify the flaws in his reasoning (without, say, any significant knowledge of the bible or Christiantity)?

  As for your comments below, Psac....

  SO why do SOME focus on the "bad parts"?

  Because they choose to, because for them hate is more of a driving force than love, intolerance more of a driving for than tolerance.

  And they are, unfortunately, not alone.

  That's a bold statement coming from someone who had to recognize the "bad parts" of the WT Society to realize it was not directed by god. Surely we all recognized that, right? In fact, I tried to point out the "bad parts" of the Society to a JW relative and what did she say?

  "I only look at the good things in the organization. Why do you insist on picking out the negative stuff? You're just looking for a reason to get out."

  My relative's defense was very similar to yours above, Psac. If I exposed a negative aspect of the org, she denied it or rationalized it, and then hit me with an ad hominem attack. Please think about what you're implying.

  Bear in mind, I realize some folks prejudge all Muslim people because of what they read in the Koran or based on the actions of a radical Islamic sect. I've argued against that on other threads. But that doesn't make the Koran any less wrong or uninspired by god.

  My reasons for highlighting the negative things in the bible, in the Koran, and in the WT are all the same.
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  PSacramento

  I am not aure what you are getting at SBC...

  My point was that some people CHOOSE to focus on certain parts because of deep issues that "attract" them to those parts.

  Its not about ignoring the potential bad in the holy books, no far from that we much acknowledge that they are there and deal with them.

  I was trying to show why some people that are muslims do NOT advocate harming others while others do.
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  tec

  PSac and Tammy, first of all, please don't take my comments here as angry or aggressive.

  SBC, you are far more conscientious than you give yourself credit. So no worries. I also wasn't fully following the conversation, so I didn't focus on the Islamic faith, but rather applied PSac's comment to the Christian faith.

  The WT is unified, in that there is no room for disagreement between its leaders, and no room for criticism by its followers. So if you're following an organization, then you're following what it stands for.

  The early Christians (the early apostles for that matter) had disagreements among themselves. Meaning they did not all come to the same understanding on some topics, so it stands to reason that their writings and 'instructions' would reflect some of these discrepancies as well. But since Christ preached mercy and love and forgiveness, it just seems funny (and perhaps a reflection of what is inside a person) that someone would take a 'rule' that seems to be in opposition to these teachings, as a higher authority than Christ, Himself. Because if you are following Christ, then you're following what He stands for.

  Tammy
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  rocketman

  I remember watching the following Star Trek Next Gen episode and wondering about whether God actually might do something similar:

  The USS Enterprise-D is called to Bre'el IV to help them with their moon that is falling out of orbit and threatening the planet. As they are trying to find a way to get the moon back into its orbit, Q suddenly drops in, literally, and Picard jumps to the conclusion that Q is responsible for what is happening to the Bre'el.

  In the episode, Q (stripped of his powers) suggests altering the gravitational constant of the universe, thereby altering the moon's mass. Of course, Enterprise can't do that, but they end up trying to wrap the moon in a warp field and push it. Late in the episode, a restored Q solves the problem in some undisclosed manner.

  Of course, TV is one thing, reality another. But is God so powerful that he could solve the Joshua problem at the snap of a finger? I have my doubts, but if there is a God...
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  PSacramento

  Rocketman,

  I once read that if a human mind can conceive of something then that means that God can do it.

  God is not bound by our limitations or the laws and limitations of the universe that he created and he most certainly can "break" those law and make that event have NO repercussion outside of that limited area of infulence.

  Afterall, why couldn't he?

  A master programmer can enter in and out of a program ( that he built) that is running, at wil,l and alter the very "laws" ( that he imposed) of that program for a specific "moment in time", without making any difference on the rest of the running program.
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  QuitWastingTIME

  I'm new here, but I must say, I am very intrigued by Cheezits method of ... well, I guess debate for lack of a better word, because I don't think he is "debating" in the common understanding of the word, but I use "debate" for the real meaning of it.

  SBC, your insight and ability to remain unbiased is noteworthy. Your comment about focusing on the bad stuff and not the positive has always been trying to erupt from my mind, but never vocalized. This is a comment that can be used ANYwhere.

  For instance, if a JW family member or friend were to ever readily point out the mistakes and shortcomings of another religion, which, let's just admit it, they all do, we could easily reply with, "Yeah, but you know there are some shortcomings in your own belief system (what with doctrinal changes, imperfections, etc etc) and that's a negative. Yet you choose to focus on the positive. What's the difference?"

  Almost sad how I see so many people leave the Witnesses only to ENGULF themselves in another equally irrational religious conundrum. I see that a lot here. Then there are those who go completely and disrespectfully bonkers. I say disrespectfully because while I don't feel there is anything intrinsically wrong with stronger language, I know that I wouldn't just drop the F bomb around anybody. Yet some users on this forum do that, disregarding the effect it might have on someone who is just "auditing" the website. All that disrespect does is strengthen the resolve of those peeking out of the JW organization to remain close, because the world outside is dark and demonic. I don't agree with WT methodology, but if every single human on the planet were a Witness, I am forced to admit that I would feel safer and my outlook on life would be more positive.

  Sorry for going on a tangent here, I have been needing to relieve my bladder since I started the post.
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  SweetBabyCheezits

  Wow, thank you, QWT. And welcome to JWN! I'm trying my best to work through this journey with as little bias as possible.

  Your third paragraph sounds like sooo many conversations I've had with the aforementioned relative. At the beginning of one conversation, we were talking about other religions and I pointed out some of the good fruits that one might see in Mormonism.

  She replied with an illustration: "Suppose you wanted to call me on the phone and you got just ONE NUMBER wrong, would you reach me? No! It's the same with these religions. They may have some things right but if they're just one 'number' off, they cannot reach God!" Later in the conversation, I pointed out a serious flaw in WT doctrine and she said, "Well the identifying mark is LOVE so you need to put that issue behind you. It isn't the important thing." I then quoted her illustration back to her. If I recall, some circular logic was then pulled in and around and round we went.

  Yet some users on this forum do that, disregarding the effect it might have on someone who is just "auditing" the website. All that disrespect does is strengthen the resolve of those peeking out of the JW organization to remain close, because the world outside is dark and demonic.

  I remember thinking the same thing when I first joined, that a lack of civility might only cofirm what JW lurkers' have heard about "apostates". That said, I have been guilty a time or three of letting things fly on here when I'm venting about JW stuff. So it's good to get a reminder, QWT.