Is Forgiveness Overrated? (page 16)

bohm

yes, same question, but with: had --> would.

tec

Then I answered it, lol... right underneath in the last bit of my response.

designs

Death as a Spirit Being. Guys! I finally figured out where the voices come from, she's channeling Max Von Snydow in Ingmar Bergman's film 'The Seventh Seal'.

okay. Satan was a serpent all the time (apparently not the type who held a sword. i will let the picture stand). When did God become aware he was rebelling against his rules? Its a fundamental question i believe, in light of your comment that it would be irresponsible to have people around who disbehave.

I don't know, but it seems silly that they would make the same choice. Not that this means they wouldn't have... we make the same mistakes over and over and over again, ourselves, so it is not that 'out there'.

Well, i must admit i think its a no-brainer.. im strying to understand this. Could you perhaps give me some reasons why you think they would like to make the same choice, had they known the consequences? I mean, they had a rather dysfunctional family.. i think every women could do without wrinkles (and man for the matter), the birth pain.. the whole thing about dying..

and for what? i suppose thats where you must make the argument why you think they might have liked the option anyway.

tec

Could you perhaps give me some reasons why you think they would like to make the same choice, had they known the consequences?

Um... if they still wanted what they originally wanted - to be like God, and not die. So they might try to gain that again... thinking if they changed just this one thing (whatever that might one thing might be), then they might succeed in getting what they want this time around. (but still not listening to and/or trusting God)

Example: a kid sneaking out of his house, falling off the roof and breaking his leg. Is that going to stop them from sneaking out of the house again in the future? Or are they just going to find a different way of sneaking out (instead of just waiting until they are old enough and wise enough to actually leave that house at night through the front door)?

Even applying that to having gotten beat up or hurt or whatever because they snuck out and were alone at night in a tough neighborhood... some kids would say, you know I shouldn't be out alone at night because it is dangerous like my father told me, and some kids will say, well I'll just bring a knife/gun with me next time.

Tammy

bohm

Could you perhaps give me some reasons why you think they would like to make the same choice, had they known the consequences?

Um... if they still wanted what they originally wanted - to be like God, and not die. So they might try to gain that again... thinking if they changed just this one thing (whatever that might one thing might be), then they might succeed in getting what they want this time around. (but still not listening to and/or trusting God)

But they did not become in any remote way like God, i can easily argue from own experience here. As for your second argument, clearly they did die, so thats not a reason either.
Im sorry, but i must insist on this question because i find it central to how you persieve the psyche of adam and eve (which i find quite perculiar): Why do you think they might have made the same choice even if they had known the true consequences? I see strong arguments against doing that, like dying, and since you think its a difficult question there must be something that attract adam and eve to that choice.

God did give them a shirt, but its hardly that.

....nice shirt .... dead jesus .... nice shirt ... dead jesus...

bohm

Tammy -- in all the examples you give you completely trivialize death. i think we should argue the story in the bible, but if i try to put the true consequence -death- into your story it become very different:

Example: a kid sneaking out of his house, falling off the roof and breaking his leg. He get an infection in his leg and the doctors tell him he will die. His father has a miracle drug that can help him, but he reason: "He didnt do as i instructed him, why should i give him the drugs? Is that going to stop them from sneaking out of the house again in the future? Or are they just going to find a different way of sneaking out (instead of just waiting until they are old enough and wise enough to actually leave that house at night through the front door)?". So the kid die.

his father was a bit of an arse right? i suppose to make the example more realistic there should be a consequence for the off-spring of the child, and he should have been tricked into the house by another kid called Satan, who promised him he would surely not fall down.

If you know another way to enter death which the father could trivially prevent into the story i am all ears... but i suppose the atheists illustrations are not very helpfull in explaining the bible.

tec

Why do you think they might have made the same choice even if they had known the true consequences? I see strong arguments against doing that, like dying, and since you think its a difficult question there must be something that attract adam and eve to that choice.

I don't think its a difficult question. I just don't think that EVERYONE would make the same decision.

So... even if they had known the true consequences, they still might have made the same choice - IF - they didn't believe that what they did was wrong, and were pretty much saying, I'm gonna do what I want and I don't care about the consequences, I don't submit to you, and basically 'screw you'. Now, I don't think that this is the case. BUT - I acknowledge that for some very rare few, it can be the case. Out of stubbornness, hatred, anger, etc.

So there are two reasons that I can think of why someone might do the same thing, even knowing the consequence:

a) thinking they can get around the consequence by making a smarter decision somewhere in the fray.

b) stubbornness, hatred, anger... refusal to listen to anyone but themselves.

I also agree that they did not become just like God - but that someone wouldn't think that there is some other way of attaining this - being like God. Even on this site, people argue that the serpent told the truth and God lied.

Tammy

bohm

Right. So when Eve said: "The serpent beguiled me, and I ate.", that sound like a person who took a rational descision based on all avaliable facts?

Well, if thats your interpretation, and you believe Adam and Eve would have made the same descision if they had had all facts, then i will give you that your position seem sound assuming those things.

tec

Bohm, but your example isn't of death either... it is of dying. But if the natural consequence is death, then that death has to happen. So perhaps this is my fault, because I brought poison into the discussion - I just meant that to show the difference between consequence and punishment.

But God has also given us a way to be brought back to life (in spirit), after death: Christ.

Tammy

Is Forgiveness Overrated?

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