Is Forgiveness Overrated?

by leavingwt 195 Replies latest jw friends

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  AGuest

  Since your entire post rest on a premise i am unfamiliar with i cannot address it in detail.

  I totally understand, dear Bohm, and again, peace to you!

  Who is death?

  Death is a spirit being. He is the one who took the lives of the firstborn in Egypt during Moses day. He is referred to as the "Destroyer/Destruction", but his name is Abaddon (in Hebrew) and Apollyon (in Greek). He is a living, breathing entity... and controlled by JAH.

  What is he doing in the garden?

  He wasn't in the garden; his "agent", the seraph (serpent) called "Satan" was, though. He (Death) WANTED to enter into this world but couldn't (he was restricted from doing so - he is usually "chained", actually)... unless someone "opened" the "way" for him to GET in. LOOSED him. Satan used Adham to do that. Thus, through one man, Adham, sin entered... and Death THROUGH sin. It was a "backdoor" move: he did not enter through the front "Door", Christ.

  If adam gave his life to Death, could God not have asked Death nicely to give it back?

  The word of my Lord is that you assume two things, here, the first being that Adham WANTED to negate the "deal" he's made. He didn't. He still believed he would have unending authority over Death. Second, that the Most Holy One of Israel didn't ask. He did... and Death refused... unless he received something in exchange... something of equal value: another similar lifeforce. Preferably another son... and heir to the kindgom. Which he eventually did... but for just a very brief moment... and only as to the vessel, not the lifeforce itself. Because, in the end, it was Death who was tricked.

  If Death refused, could God not have send Death to his room?

  No, because it doesn't work like that. Unlike us, when the Most Holy One of Israel makes a "law" or "agreement" or "promise"... it is kept. His yes means yes... and His no means no. Which is one of the reasons for so many warnings. One of the reasons for this is because in order for the universe to function the way it's SUPPOSED to... there has be stability... and reliability.

  We humans make a treaty... and then, if it doesn't suit our likes/needs/wants... we break it. We make promises... and, if they no longer suit our likes/needs/wants... we break them. Same thing with agreements. And sometimes it's warranted; for example, when we're forgiving someone their debts/obligations. We can do that. The Most Holy One of Israel can do that... forgive a debt.

  Death, however, isn't forgiving... doesn't forgive. Which is one of the reasons why he is called "evil"... or "bad." He is NOT love and has no union with love. He is the exact opposite.

  So, the Most Holy One of Israel couldn't just negate an agreement ADHAM had made. DEATH had to agree to a negation... and HE refused... without receiving something in exchange. At the time, there was nothing... no one... to BE given in exchange. Adham and Eve would have had to have children... but they didn't until AFTER Adham sinned. As a result, neither child (Cain or Abel) was the equal of the lifeforce his father had given up. And even then, the one child that might have been closest in line... Abel... was killed... by his brother. Removing both of these from the equation.

  Now, you might ask why it took SO long for that equal lifeforce TO come. I cannot answer that except to say that while things seem to take a long time coming here, it is not the same in the spirit realm. There, time is not limited as it is here, so the blink of an eye there... can equal centuries here, where time is measured.

  Would you say the practice by JWs of shunning demonstrates a lack of forgiveness?

  Absolutely, dear JO (the greatest of love and peace to you!). Christ never shunned, expelled, excommunicated, marked, or DF'd anyone. Including Judas. Nor did he tell his disciples to do so. Paul held onto that teaching from his days as a Pharisee. But it caused great division... between him and the apostles... and between the members of the Corinthian congregation. He later "repented" (2 Corinthians)... and recanted (Romans).

  Of course, this long debate started as a discussion about the merits of forgiveness. It has now become a debate about Adam Eve in the Garden of Eden.

  Yeah, that sometimes happens in discussions/conversations, dear Glad (peace to you, as well!). That is one of the beauties of human dialogue and conversation... and this board: discussions are not always static or limited. We are actually such versatile creatures that we can actually entertain more than one thought... and, for women... topic, issue, and conversation... at a time. Please forgive us when we do this; some of us aren't able to... ummmm... "confine" ourselves as some might think we should. It's how some of us are able to keep track of more than one kid... the house... the dog... the cat... the husband... AND a job... all at the same time. My apologies if it overflows here, as well.

  since you choose to pontificate in a contrary manner, I'm guessing you just looove to listen to YOURSELF don't you?

  Really? That's the best you can respond? You know who it is I listen to... the One whom you openly deny... and so can't hear... so that it is yourself and others such as the author that YOU must listen to. To your own repeated error... and those that you constantly share such melarkey with. You don't know... so you opine... or push others' opinions as truth. Didn't have to be that way, though. You COULD have shared exactly what I did... the truth. But that takes knowing the Truth. Which you don't... because he is, in your opinion, a demon.

  I bid you all peace... yes, all...

  A slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  THE GLADIATOR

  Death is a spirit being...He is a living, breathing entity... and controlled by JAH.

  Wow! I have always thought that death is the natural state that all living creatures and plants reach at the end of their lives. This is much more exciting. A real breathing entity that I can challenge in combat - a fight to the death.
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  bohm

  Tammy

  What do you do if you KNOW that someone does NOT have the capacity to learn love, mercy, or forgiveness? Do you allow them into your house, where you know that they will begin to destroy the innocent ones also in your house? Or do you protect those innocent ones by refusing to allow these others entry into your house?

  Thats just what im saying! i would not let them in the house. that would be really stupid and dangerous.

  But we know a particular being who would, God, and when the wicked person make another person in the house break a rule, we should apparently not forgive the person who broke the rule (which you, by the way, just said he did not know the full consequence of breaking), but rather chase that person out though the consequence of that would be death. and death of his child. and of his grandchild. in horrible ways. and so on.

  well i think thats pretty much what im saying, except im also advocating some forgiveness on Gods behalf.
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  bohm

  Aguest: Heres what God should do:

  • Place death on mars. Give him crayons and paper. Tell Death that he should not mess with his creation.
    • that God did not manage to do that show he has either little foresight or regard for his creation.
  • Same for the serpent.
  • same for the sin backdoor. talk about intelligent design...
  • "here, the first being that Adham WANTED to negate the "deal" he's made. He didn't. He still believed he would have unending authority over Death." And your assuming Adam and Eve are both frekkin' morons who believe the omnipotent God is the wrong guy to side with. Again, we should properly remind ourselves that the problem only exist because God is a poor designer, secondly because he designed two beings who are to stupid to make the most obvious choice ever.
    No offence, but if you base this on personal revelation, i think its best we dont continue this discussion since i can only talk about the god of the bible.
  • "Second, that the Most Holy One of Israel didn't ask. He did... and Death refused... unless he received something in exchange... something of equal value: another similar lifeforce. " really. Where does it say there are other spirit beings and God must do what they tell him to?
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  tec

  Ah... Satan. You're speaking of Satan. (which has to be different in some ways, because Satan is not the same 'species?' as we are, being a spirit being and able to know both good and bad, yet not dying. He has to be destroyed) But then you are also implying that a) God knew Satan would do what he did...and b) then judged him... before Satan had ever even done anything wrong... or even given any evidence (by his deeds) that his heart was bad.

  ****

  Satan - "I'm cast out? But I never did anything wrong! Who have I hurt?"

  God - "Oh, but you would have. Your heart is evil."

  Satan, looking around at his brothers, "How have I shown my heart to be evil? I tell you, I would not have done this. I have been cast out/destroyed, and I never did anything to deserve it. God is unjust."

  * grumbling, doubting, more grumbling and fear among other spirit beings and also among Adam/Eve and the rest of humanity, terrified that they will get struck down for God thinking they have an evil heart - perhaps even Satan, convincing himself that he would not have done what he had done. *

  *****

  Just one alternative that I can think of if the case had gone the way you might be suggesting. Which doesn't make my thoughts true, but as I said - WE cannot see the whole thing, because WE have limited knowledge, and great ignorance. But Satan would most certainly have had some ammunition if he had been both judged and condemned before he ever did anything wrong.

  You also keep speaking as if God 'killed' them for what they did by chasing them out, instead of what I've been saying about death being a cause/effect consequence of what they did, of knowing evil. You can disagree with me if you like, of course, but your pov is lost on me if you do, and mine is also lost on you.

  But God did not leave those outside the garden without a cure for death: Christ. And you know, even those who have faith in Christ die in the flesh, but he emphasized the importance of the spirit over the flesh. But again, you don't know that God did not or will not grant Adam/Eve forgiveness, and also eternal life.

  Tammy
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  bohm

  tammy - so your saying God was completely oblivious to Satans rebellion before he actually spoke the words to Eve?

  Did God hear what Satan said to Eve as they had the conversation? i thought that God did that per default, given he is all-powerfull.
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  tec

  so your saying God was completely oblivious to Satans rebellion before he actually spoke the words to Eve?

  I am suggesting that God did not know that Satan would deceive Adam and Eve, or betray Him in doing so. I am saying, that had God punished Satan for something he had not yet done, this would have seemed, and perhaps also been, unjust. Which God is not.

  Did God hear what Satan said to Eve as they had the conversation? i thought that God did that per default, given he is all-powerfull.

  The account does not make it seem as though He did.

  But to play devil's advocate for a moment, lets say that he did... were Adam and Eve actually going to do what He had told them not to, since He told them it would bring them death? Were they going to throw the gift of life that He had given them, back in His face, because of their desire for more? Perhaps he was allowing them to answer for themselves.

  Tammy
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  bohm

  tammy -- "I am suggesting that God did not know that Satan would deceive Adam and Eve, or betray Him in doing so. "

  but i am not so interested in the question of betrayal, but when God became aware satan turned out wicked?

  did he become aware of that before he began to transform into a snake (the bible explain that satan contemplate the matter), or did god only notice this as he spoke to adam and eve?

  were Adam and Eve actually going to do what He had told them not to, since He told them it would bring them death?

  this bring me back to my basic question: Had adam and eve done what they did had they known the consequences -- the billions of deaths -- including their own?

  you allready said they did not know the full consequences, i belive.
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  tec

  did he become aware of that before he began to transform into a snake (the bible explain that satan contemplate the matter), or did god only notice this as he spoke to adam and eve?

  Where does the account say that Satan transformed into a snake? (serpent is correct, but again no mention of having transformed into one) As far as the account is concerned, Satan is the serpent.

  this bring me back to my basic question: Had adam and eve done what they did had they known the consequences -- the billions of deaths -- including their own?

  You mean would, right?

  you allready said they did not know the full consequences, i belive.

  They knew the full consequence: death. Did they fully understand how bad death would be: I don't think so, since they did not know death, themselves. So are you asking me a sort of : if they knew then what we know now, would they still have made that choice? I don't know, but it seems silly that they would make the same choice. Not that this means they wouldn't have... we make the same mistakes over and over and over again, ourselves, so it is not that 'out there'.

  But the only way they could have known then, what we know now, is to have asked God to explain further and trusted in him, or learn it the hard way, on their own.

  (and people usually only get a mulligan in golf)

  Tammy
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  journey-on

  AGuest: Are you saying that once imbalance was initiated by Adham and Eve using their free will to sin, the "game" began between Life (God) and Death?

  In order for free will to exist, there must be choices and consequences. In order for a perfect universe to exist (and God's universe IS perfect), there must be a balance between the forces. Death was ahead until Christ came into physical manifestation and "checked" Death. What am I missing?