Is Forgiveness Overrated?

by leavingwt 195 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  bohm

  Aguest:

  You stated:

  God had a similar choice: He could -at no cost to himself- keep adam and eve alive, or he could let them die.

  That's not entirely accurate. There were others involved. In order to save Adham and Eve at that time... or even within a short period... another would have had to die. Because Adham made a CHOICE: he chose Death to give his life to.

  Since your entire post rest on a premise i am unfamiliar with i cannot address it in detail.

  Who is death? What is he doing in the garden? If adam gave his life to Death, could God not have asked Death nicely to give it back? If Death refused, could God not have send Death to his room?
• 

  THE GLADIATOR

  Of course, this long debate started as a discussion about the merits of forgiveness. It has now become a debate about Adam Eve in the Garden of Eden. And whether the god of the old testament dealt with them in a fair way.

  How many people actually believe the god of the old testament or the tale of Adam & Eve to be literal?

  The list of those that don't, include: Agnostics, athiests, pagans, modern Christians, and most other religions of the world.

  The list of those that do are.........?

  In line with this topic, please 'forgive' my impertinent intrusion into you debate.
• 

  tec

  Glad :) - Adam and Eve came into this because I think Bohm thought it was odd that Christians can be all hell-bent on forgiveness (sorry, that was a groaner), but God did not forgive Adam and Eve. But you are right, of course, in that it is Christ we must look toward, in order to see God. There is too much about everything else that most of us don't see or understand.

  Bohm - you are implying that Adam and Eve absolutely did beg for mercy and it was not granted. I'm not sure how you can make that implication, but not accept the thought that God did forgive them and that they may live again, eternally. From what we do have of the account, Adam blamed Eve and Eve blamed the snake. (you also make dying slowly sound like a torturous event, when all that means is that they aged - as we do)

  Now you say that they didn't do any harm to God or his house. That isn't really true. They brought death into His house. Now barring what Shelby shared above (peace to you), I suppose God could have wiped the act from their mind -erasing all knowledge of death/evil -and then cleansed them of the death that had entered into them, and so started anew. But of course, this is purely hypothetical from my very limited viewpoint. From what I do know, I would guess that if they made the choice once and had learned nothing from their wrongdoing, then they would make that choice again.

  As for God being a fool... do you think someone is a fool to trust another person until or unless that person has proven they are not trustworthy? Or do you think it is unjust not to trust someone who has never broken your trust before? I know that we are wary now, because most of us have been betrayed by someone we trusted at some point - or we at least know people who have been betrayed.

  Tammy
• 

  myelaine

  dear AGuest...

  "you said: "You're missing the entire point, Michelle. And it is because you don't WANT to forgive some. And so this author's thinking... which obviously comports with yours... provides a very convenient way to get around it while still holding a "good" conscience: we only have to forgive those who are repentant. That is melarkey. I wasn't repentant when I found Christ... or, rather, when he found me. Heck, I didn't even know half of what I should have been repentant about. He is the One who showed me... and still shows me."...

  since you choose to pontificate in a contrary manner, I'm guessing you just looove to listen to YOURSELF don't you?

  love michelle
• 

  bohm

  tammy, i am not implying the absolutely begged for mercy. but i find it very likely they did, which i said. if i was dying slowly and knew i had brought that upon my kids, i would beg for mercy.. i think anyone would. im not saying they did, but i can duly ask you if you would where you in adam and eves place?.

  Also, i dont think you are adressing the meat of my post, this:

  What they did was not to any burden of God (who is all-powerfull, no house was being ruined he could no rebuild by snapping his fingers), and your example is more accurate if you had vital life-supporting medicine your children needed or they would die, and you desided that after you had chased them out of the house you would not send them the life-supporting medicine by mail: only a terrible human would do such a thing and there is no way to justify that without changing the underlying story.

  you can argue (again) the illustration fail, but then lets return to the biblical story: God did not forgive what we would have forgived trivially. He got angry, chased them off to their death, and inflicted suffering on them he could trivially have prevented while he slowly watched them die over 700 years. Thats a hell of an anger management issue right there!

  I watched my grandmom die from old age and it was not a nice thing to behold. she did suffer very badly, as do most who age. if that kind of suffering was brought upon another human on purpose i would think it was torture.

  Now you say that they didn't do any harm to God or his house. That isn't really true. They brought death into His house.

  they made death? who died? why? in the bible, it just sound like they got to know good and evil. Did they not know about death before they ate teh fruit? in that case, it would not seem they made an enlightened choice.

  perhaps you could explain exactly what you believe physically changed, between them not eaing the apple and after.

  I would guess that if they made the choice once and had learned nothing from their wrongdoing, then they would make that choice again.

  thats a very odd thing to guess -- you mean God would not be able to teach them it was wrong? why did he not even try? (thats what i would have done) did the snake have no part in causing them to perform their crime?

  I did not call God a fool for trusting anyone. i called him a fool for not forgiven such a trivial crime, and a fool for letting the snake walk around. he is an awfull role model as a parent, and i will note he has a poor record of keeping his children alive.
• 

  tec

  Luke 7:47 "Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven--for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."

  The forgiveness came first, then the love BECAUSE of that forgiveness. I think we HAVE to forgive everyone who repents against us... that is a given, or it is a sin if we do not (in which we do have one who can cover that sin for us, but it is a sin nonetheless). But if we are following the example of Christ as well as the teaching, then we must forgive and ask God to forgive those who also have not repented and may never repent. Stephen did the same, when being stoned.

  I'm not sure if you're saying something different or not, Michelle? I might be losing what you're saying in the length of the article, or just misunderstanding.

  Tammy
• 

  journey-on

  Question, if I may: Would you say the practice by JWs of shunning demonstrates a lack of forgiveness? They say it demonstrates love.

  (If this has already been discussed in this thread, my apologies for missing it.)
• 

  tec

  tammy, i am not implying the absolutely begged for mercy. but i find it very likely they did, which i said. if i was dying slowly and knew i had brought that upon my kids, i would beg for mercy.. i think anyone would. im not saying they did, but i can duly ask you if you would where you in adam and eves place?.

  I would beg for mercy, yes. I think I would have begged for mercy almost right away. However, that does not mean everyone would. In fact, I know people who would answer that question differently. And they do answer it differently even today, by blaming God rather than the serpent or Adam and Eve.

  Also, i dont think you are adressing the meat of my post, this:

  I thought I did, but I think I missed this:

  desided that after you had chased them out of the house you would not send them the life-supporting medicine by mail:

  He did and does: Christ is the 'cure' for the 'poison.'

  I watched my grandmom die from old age and it was not a nice thing to behold. she did suffer very badly, as do most who age. if that kind of suffering was brought upon another human on purpose i would think it was torture.

  I'm sorry for you and your grandmother, and I know that painful deaths can occur with diseases that can accompany old age. My family is also very long lived. While I haven't been around the actual death, the only thing that I know about them really regretting - was going when there was still more that they wanted to do.

  they made death? who died? why? in the bible, it just sound like they got to know good and evil. Did they not know about death before they ate teh fruit? in that case, it would not seem they made an enlightened choice.

  I don't believe they made death; just allowed it to enter them. Death (darkness) was already present in the world (universe, multi-verse, whatever). Did they fully understand death - I would guess no, because neither of them had ever experienced death to that point. But there is no reason to think that they did not know what death was since they spoke about it is as if they did. Eve and the serpent did not converse as if death or dying was a foreign concept.

  What do I think changed physically? I think once they ate (which I do not think is a literal apple, or even a literal tree, but rather those things ARE what they represent- knowledge of good and evil)... so they "took in" or 'tasted' good and evil... and they now knew (personally experienced) evil, even death, and so died. They had to die (consequence) because they took in/tasted death.

  you mean God would not be able to teach them it was wrong? why did he not even try? (thats what i would have done) did the snake have no part in causing them to perform their crime?

  That is a strange comment. God did teach them that it was wrong. He told them not to eat from that tree, and that they would die if they did so. Yes, the serpent did have a part in their crime through his deception... but again the natural consequence was death. Also, Adam and Eve (taken literally) do still have hope for life.

  Tammy
• 

  tec

  Would you say the practice by JWs of shunning demonstrates a lack of forgiveness?

  I would say that it certainly demonstrates a lack of mercy or love, and yes, even, forgiveness. Their reinstatement 'process' as well.

  Tammy
• 

  tec

  Bohm,

  Bringing this whole topic back around to forgiveness, I would guess that by knowing Christ, and knowing that Christ would forgive, that God would also forgive Adam and Eve.

  However:

  What do you do if you KNOW that someone does NOT have the capacity to learn love, mercy, or forgiveness? Do you allow them into your house, where you know that they will begin to destroy the innocent ones also in your house? Or do you protect those innocent ones by refusing to allow these others entry into your house?

  From what I know of Christ and forgiveness and mercy, it is only those who would destroy the innocent because they cannot or will not learn love or mercy... who are not allowed into the Kingdom. (the garden) And it is those who would come against that house and all those within it, in order to destroy it and them, who might have to be destroyed themselves.

  We, however, do have to forgive everyone, because we do not know what is in the heart of another man, and because we also want to be forgiven for the evil that we all do, at one time or another. We are also so limited (in our age, and our simple pov in the world, in our ignorance), that most of us cannot see that by our actions (or even lack of action), we have caused others to do wrong.

  Tammy