by AK - Jeff 99 Replies latest members adult
In the eyes of the law, whether or not homosexuality is a choice should make no difference.
If it is innate, discriminating against it is like discriminating against someone based on the color of their eyes or skin.
If it is a choice, discriminating against it is like discriminating against someone based on whether they like jazz instead of classical (or whatever).
BTS
I m one of those people you call ignorant because I believe in GOD!
As for the bibles teaching on your subject ,( I dont believe all scripture)
I guess we are ALL in trouble because MY reading of it states all "sin"
is an abomination really, I believe if they are in a differant sexual life than mine
( I am NOT gay) & they truly LOVE there partners ,so be it!Now I do believe
there is a penalty for "sinning" liKe thieves go to jail,adultery,causes heartaches etc
etc: I STILL believe we are NOT to judge one another ,let the GREAT JUDGE do it.
Have you interjected those individuals who are 'intersexed'.....genetics cause physical imperfection externally and internally sometimes.
Studies haves suggested in some transexuals (male only) higher leves of estrogen than testosterone influencing brain development.
Nuances, devil is always in the details.
Isn't it more of a sin to gossip or judge a person in Judaism??
Why would large masses of people choice to be the butt of jokes, to not have marriage right, to be discriminated against in any venue, to be beaten, hunted down the vice squad and even murdered. Would somone choose to walk into Hitler's gas chambers? It infuriates me. I also believe there is decent science now showing it is not choice. I recall when I was young that mothers caused it. So blame the mother. Fathers were blameless. The same with schizophrenia.
The Bible is not clear in my view. I am Christian. Therefore, Christ's statements and actions have more validity for me than some OT minor statements. Knowing what they knew thousands of years ago, it makes some sense that these unfortunate remarks are found in the OT. Jesus preached to the outcasts of his day. If he sought out tax collectors, prostitute, ritually unclean women, he probably sought out gays too. How would Christ's love ever be contingent on something genetic over which one has no control.
I lived near the Christoper Street area of Greenwich Village in NY, the East Coast center of gay culture. Knowing countless gays, I know from my depths that they are just human. Well, actually, the stereotypes concerning art and design seem to be true in most cases. When I attend church, gay members embrace each other openly. In fact, I'd rather live near a gay community which can be colorful than a dreary heterosexual one. Jesus trumps other scripture. Why do many Bibles print his words in red?
I believe that someone who could scapegoat an entire segment of humanity probably can't be converted with facts. II do believe, however, that if she had to interact with gays, she would eventually change her mind. Knowledge of real people makes it harder to stereotype.
The Bible is complex. It does not say what might seem apparent by Bible versing. I simply can't fathom how one can read of Jesus in the Gospels and believe gays are evil. When I was young, the vast majority of white people viewed themselves as superior to African-Americans on racial purity grounds. I actually believed they descened from organgatums or chimps or gorillas. Eyeballs popped if a black was not in a menial job. Very poor whites could feel superior. Now we have a black president. Laws forbid discrimination and the media was pro civil rights. I see gay rights as being on that trajectory.
If an act is not illegal, there is nothing to defend. First, an attacker should be compelled to prove that he has the right to attack or impose his opinion on people who are not breaking any law. People just assume they are entitled to an explanation.
W
I have a gay nephew and a gay cousin. From the ripe old age of 2, my nephew has wanted to be a girl. He would dress up in my sis's clothes, come over to my house and try to fit into my DD's (dear daughter) clothes AND his choice of toys were always dolls or barbies. ALL of his friends were girls. He did not hang out with guys. As he got a bit older about 14-16, he turned Goth....wearing all black, dying his beautiful blonde hair black and wore black eyeliner and mascara. Right around 16 he was in a play at the childrens theater that was based on homosexuality and the issues that teens have as they are starting to come out to their friends. At 18 he is comfortable with who he is as a gay man. I love him unconditionally and will accept anyone he ends up with as well. My kids love him and accept him for who he is. My nephew was never baptized, nor does he claim to be a JW.
I firmly believe that it is NOT a choice and I feel blessed to have my nephew teach me unconditional love through watching him grow up and become a beautiful person, inside and out.
In Roman times, men of power had sexual relations with whomever they chose, men, boys and women. It even mentioned that these powerful men would have sex with the male slaves not as a pleasureable thing, but as a form of punishment. But the interesting thing was that women could NOT have relations with other women. That was considered disgusting and vile. This link was very interesting.... http://www.articlesbase.com/sexuality-articles/history-of-sex-exploring-sexuality-in-ancient-rome-713391.html
So, that brings to mind a question. When the scriptures speak of "men lying with men" and how they will not inherit God's Kingdom, would this have been written because of the way these men in Rome chose to abuse their power? Also, why were women not mentioned to not lay with other women? Was it because it was already considered a vile thing to the Romans and therefore God did not need to include women in this matter?
I would love to hear any comments regarding this......This is a point that my sis and I talk about quite a bit as she is still a JW, but struggles because of the JW views on homosexuality.
Leviticus doesn't mention lesbians. Is it OK for women to be gay?
Paul, apparently, condemns effeminates and men-who-lie-with-men. Again, no mention of lesbians.
Jeff - I really feel for your young friend. She's been indoctrinated with someone's version of Bible-based morality, and as a home schooled person, she's had very little chance of thinking outside the thick-walled parametres her mind has been set behind.
But I would ask her why, today, evangelical Christians think eating shellfish and pork is OK. She'll have an answer that food laws don't apply now because we have refrigeration, or that it's only the morality laws that get carried forward, but if you can get her to understand that any answer she gives is someone elses interpretation of what she should believe it may give her pause if she really thinks all her beliefs are entirely bible based.
These are all wonderful, heartfelt responses, to a rather large elephant often ignored in the room.
Thank you. I am mentally putting together my rebuttal arguments to her. I will be kind and gracious, as she always is with me. You have given me much to think about and perhaps to include in this debate.
Unfortunately, as stated more than once here, those who have boxed themselves into believing the Bible to be the inerrant word of God are unlikely to leave it's safe-haven for an open view of the world and it's reality. Still, if but a crack in the box can be opened, there is a chance that at some point she may take chisel and hammer to peer the light herself. This is my hope.
Thanx again. I will look back in the next few days to see if others are willing to drop their 2 drachmas here.
Peace/Namaste
Jeff
For Homosexuality not to be a choice is to invalidate the Bible since it is indeed very clear on the matter.
-Sab