by sabastious 59 Replies latest watchtower bible
Put yourself in his shoes.
That's the point, Tammy, I am putting myself in his shoes (or at least attempting to). With his perspective (eons?) emotional pain (as in just thinking about getting tortured) brought him to his knees. That is a human and a human alone.
-Sab
I do believe that he had more than torture on the mind though. He had an agenda of love and harmony and he knew he wasn't going to be able to see it out. The seed had been planted and he left it for us to cultivate it or not.
-Sab
I think He trusted His God and Father, Sab, to accomplish His will. Christ had the Spirit without end, but whatever he remembered from before, he was still human while here. Flesh and blood like us.
I believe He knew that seed would be cultivated. He had completed his work in the flesh. He had done so with his faith and mercy and love intact, and without disobeying his Father.
(on a side note, I watched alien 4 today, and I saw a character sweating blood and knew what that was because of this thread)
Tammy
That's the point, Tammy, I am putting myself in his shoes (or at least attempting to).
I try to do the same. That's how I understand other people better. I don't think its wrong to try and do the same with Christ, at least in an attempt to gain a better understanding... if not a full and complete one.
Tammy
I believe He knew that seed would be cultivated.
Of course he knew if he was a spirit creature in a human body, that's what I am contesting. I'm not married to the idea, but it is the most logical explanation for me until it isn't anymore.
-Sab
I think He trusted His God and Father, Sab, to accomplish His will.
The blood secreted through his sweat glands and on the ground speaks otherwise doesn't it? There are people without eons of experience as a spirit creature that can handle torture without sweating blood, right?
-Sab
Greetings and may you all have peace! A couple comments, if I may:
You guys are trying to get inside the mind of Jesus and I don't see how you can.
We can absolutely get inside the mind of Christ, the Holy One of Israel, dear PSacto (the greatest of love and peace to you!). That is the purpose of our union with him: to become one. It is the mind of the MOST Holy One of Israel that is hidden from us, except to the extent that Christ reveals it to us. HE alone knows the mind of God... and relates that to us, when necessary. But his mind is always open to those truly in union with him.
Of course he knew if he was a spirit creature in a human body, that's what I am contesting. ... it is the most logical explanation for me until it isn't anymore.
Perhaps I can help, dear Sab (peace to you!). We are, ALL of us, spirit creatures in vessels of flesh (mortal, human bodies, flesh with its blood which is limited by the "laws" of the physical world... and which die). Spirit beings (i.e., seraphs, which includes angels, God, Christ, etc.) are spirit creatures in SPIRIT vessels (immortal spirit bodies that do not need to sleep, pee, poop... and are not confined/enslaved by the "laws" of the physical world... and do not die - they must be destroyed). Because he is the Son of God, my Lord has a "higher" spirit existence... and body.
BUT... he emptied himself OUT of that spirit body... and took a "slaves FORM." OUR form. His SPIRIT... was POURED... into a human vessel... a "slaves form" (not a FREE one, as is possessed by spirit beings and, in the future, those constituted as sons of God)... one like ours and enslaved to the laws of the physical world. Because the FORM... the BODY... he took WAS like ours... JUST like ours. He was sent to be "in the likeness of sinFUL flesh." NOT in the likeness of sinLESS flesh.
So, this very powerful spirit being... the Son... lowered himself so as to be enslaved in a MUCH inferior VESSEL.
And, as with us, that vessel became an "enemy" - it enslaved him (as ours does us)... and thus SUBJECTED him to all of the same tests, injuries, illnesses, pains, sorrows, mournings, etc., that OUR flesh inflicts on US. As a result, he went through the SAME stress... IN HIS FLESH (not his SPIRIT)... that ANY one of us might go through under the same circumstances. Some of us may have only sweated. Some of us may have passed out. Some of us may have begged for mercy. Some of us... may have sucked it up, in spirit... but carried that stress in our flesh... to the point of sweating blood.
I hope this helps and, again, bid you both peace!
A slave of Christ,
SA
Perhaps I can help, dear Sab (peace to you!). We are, ALL of us, spirit creatures in vessels of flesh (mortal, human bodies, flesh with its blood which is limited by the "laws" of the physical world... and which die).
Sup wit it SA!
You say that I am a spirit vessel (as Jesus was), but do I have a way of testing that? Would you say that our spirit is akin to our consciousness? I ask that because I am trying to wrap my head around what is separate from my "flesh".
-Sab
Sup wit it SA!
Sup, Sab (and, again, peace to you!)!
You say that I am a spirit vessel (as Jesus was),
No, no, dear one. You and I are spirits... in FLESHLY vessels... who may, one day, attain to spirit vessels (that is what the releasing and/or resurrection to life is about). Christ was a spirit... in a SPIRIT vessel... who left THAT vessel... to be poured into a fleshly vessel... which he took to the grave... and later ascended to bw returned to an even more glorious spirit vessel. So, that:
US = spirit in vessel (body) of flesh --> spirit in vessel (body) of spirit
HE = spirit in vessel (body) of spirit --> spirit in vessel (body) of flesh --> spirit in vessel (body) of spirit
One of the differences is that a spirit body can put on/off flesh (by means of holy spirit)... the fleshly body cannot put off flesh (except by means of holy spirit)
but do I have a way of testing that?
I'm not sure: have you received the promised holy spirit? If so, I would say, yes, you have a "way" to test it. If not, I would have to say that it depends. On whether you've received a "way" by some other means (usually, another spirit being, although that's not necessarily a good thing).
Would you say that our spirit is akin to our consciousness?
Not quite. You don't HAVE a spirit: you ARE a spirit. It is the man you are... ON THE INSIDE. The man you would still be if they removed your limbs, your organs, your eyes, etc. It is who you ARE... regardless of the state of the vessel that you occupy. It is who you are... conscious or unconscious... in your consciousness... outside of it... in spite of it. There is one physical manifestation of it and it's not what you look like: it is your voice... and what the voice says. Which can be heard in other ways if you cannot speak. But if you can speak... those who know and love you will recognize it, no matter what your vessel looks like.
I ask that because I am trying to wrap my head around what is separate from my "flesh".
YOU, dear one... are separate from your flesh. A couple of very good example of that is Helen Keller and Stephen Hawkins. The condition and abilities of THEIR vessels seem to contradict what came/comes out of then, did/does it not? That's because their flesh did/does not dictate WHO she was/he is; they are/were both the "man" they were/are... on the inside. As are you. A terrible accident that resulted in the loss of your legs and perhaps your organs (requiring transplant) does not change who YOU are... inside. It might change how you look at things... but it is still YOU... looking at them.
I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!
A slave of Christ,
SA
PSac he also knew what was going to ultimately come from it: eternal peace and happiness.
Yep and what that would lead to, salvation.
