The trouble with Christianity. TRINITY.

by whereami 209 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • NCC-1701
    NCC-1701

    May I offer something to the discussion for consideration?

    This is something that I have only recently learned. For my example I will use John 16:26 which says, "In that day you will ask in my name, and I do not say to you that I will ask the Father on your behalf;"

    I chose this verse because it uses the word, "ask" twice in the same verse. In the first instance, it is speaking about the disciples asking something from God . In the second, it speaks of Jesus asking something of the Father.

    The greek word that scripture uses for the first instance is aiteo. The Complete Word Study Dictionary of the New Testament gives the following partial definition' "Ask, request, beg. The seeking of the inferior from the superior...by man from God."

    In the second instance, the greek word used is erotao. At the end of the definition it says, "A very distinct meaning of the verb erotao is "to pray," but it is in contrast to the verb aiteo. Erotao provides the most delicate and tender expression for prayer or request with the one asking and the one being asked being on an equal level, such as the Lord Jesus asking of the Father. The contrast is made clear in John 14:13, 14, where the word aiteo in the case of our asking God as an inferior to a superior, leaving it up to Him to do that which pleases Him. However, in John 14:16, when the Lord Jesus is praying to the Father or asking the Father, the verb erotao is used, as also in John 17:9, 15, 20."

    I looked in the book of John, and I could not find an instance where Jesus asked anything of the Father using the word aiteo but always using erotao. The word is not exclusively used by Jesus in the gospels. But as far as I can tell, Jesus uses only that word when praying to the Father.

    Does this verse and the others in John give a hint of Jesus and the Father having equal divinity?

    Thank you.

  • godrulz
    godrulz

    Interesting. Not an argument for the Deity of Christ that I have heard before. Jesus is equal with the Father, but depended on the Spirit as the Son of Man. This does not mean He was not equal as the Son of God (one person with two natures, the God-Man).

  • yourmomma
    yourmomma

    I think its a shame that some people cant discuss an issue like this without the "if you believe in the trinity you are stupid", or "if you dont believe in the trinity you are going to hell".

    The Bible is clear that faith in Christ in what is required for salvation, it doesnt say "Faith in Christ, and the docterine of the trinity".

    With that all said, it seems clear to me based on my research that the writers of the NT believed Jesus was God or the same nature as God (however you prefer to define it). Now, that still doesnt prove the trinity, nor do I personally believe in the trinity, but im not sure how you can deny that the NT writers believed Jesus was God.(i know some of you do, i respect your right to differ, i just dont get it since they come right out and say it lol)

    The other thing, as already pointed out is that the watchtower perverts and distorts what the trinity is, so when I researched the trinity and learned what it is, it was much more plausable and it made sense to me. While I still dont believe it, I understand it, and respect the fact that some people believe it, and it certainly is scriptually plausable, I just simply have not been convinced that a docterine that was clarified hundreds of years later is essential for salvation. Where does that leave all of the Christians before the docterine was clarifed and settled at the councils? They didnt believe in "the trinity" as defined by the council, so it cannot be essential for salvation. And as much as Paul ran his mouth, you cant tell me that he knew this docterine as stated in the council but didnt put it in any of his NT writings.

  • godrulz
    godrulz

    The object of our faith is important. We cannot just believe in generic jesus of our own idol making. Islam, WT, Mormon, New Age, Hindu, etc. jesus does not exist and cannot save. We must confess Him as Lord, Lord God (Pauline intent) to be saved (Rom. 10:9-10 cf. Is. passage in context and Phil. 2). We do not need to understand the trinity to be saved, but we do need to trust the real, true Jesus vs a counterfeit Christ (2 Cor. 11:4) that is worthless. Many false messiahs ran around in Jesus' day. He warned about them and those who trusted them vs Him were damned.

  • WontLeave
    WontLeave

    On one extreme, you have Trinitarians who elevate the Son to a position of conjoined twin (or triplet) with the Father and Modalists who make the Father and Son out to be one and the same, just wearing different "hats". On the other extreme, you have JWs degrading Christ to a position where their Governing Body can actually be equal to him. Neither of these positions is correct or scriptural. While Jesus obviously is "the same nature as God" - in a similar way, our own children are the same nature as us (but in Jesus' case, there is more to it than just similarity, which I will elaborate on below) - this does not denote equality.

    As is usually the case, the truth in the Bible is logical and stated. There is no need to extrapolate "implied" information, as that allows for human error. As soon as humans start explaining the Bible, the true message begins to be lost. This happens at several stages: In copy where perhaps good-intentioned monks inserted or changed the text to more clearly state church doctrine (which they may have believed the Bible indicated), in translation where there is no word-for-word rock-solid way to convey the original text with all its nuances in tact, and in interpretation when church leaders plant seeds of understanding which can taint the purity of the Bible message to subtly nudge us into reading passages with a pre-conceived slant.

    Perhaps on another online resource, I made this argument, because I was under the impression I'd made it in this forum but can't find it. I have pored over the relationship of Father and Son, the pro- and anti-Trinity Bible verses, the original Greek and what experts indicate an accurate translation to English (since I don't understand Koine) would be. So, in case anyone is interested, I'll make it clear what my understanding of the relationship between Jehovah and Jesus is and see if it doesn't fit all of the Bible. Because the Bible doesn't argue both sides of a point and if it seems like it does, there is probably another understanding that hasn't been considered which would not invite dispute.

    My working theory of Father/Son, John 1:1, and holding to all Biblical references to God and Christ:

    Adam was created from dust (Gen 2:7). Obviously, dust was created first, so God had something already in place for Adam to be created from. Jesus created dust, and later Adam (John 1:3). Jehovah is credited with creation because he is the source and catalyst of all energy/material for creation (Isa 40:26). Jehovah brought his son into existence (obviously a father preexists a son and is considered a higher position, which is why the Bible uses this relationship) and entrusted his only-begotten with the creation of everything else (Col 1:15; Pro 8:22-31.) "Begotten" isn't a magical word that totally changes meaning when used in the context of Scripture. Something or someone begotten has to, at one time, not existed, because in order for begetting to occur, something has to be brought into existence.

    Since up until the time Jesus was brought into existence, the Father was the only thing/entity which did exist, what would Jesus have to have been made from? Obviously, the only source of creative "material" from which God would have initiated the existence of a companion "son" was himself. Like an amoeba, God literally split into two entities, making a separate but entirely similar likeness of himself. Some would argue this would make a rival for God, but remember the Father wanted a son, not a brother or cousin. To keep his higher position, he would have not made an equal, splitting himself into exact halves, but would have used a relatively small piece of himself to assure a hierarchy where he remained God, even to the other god (the one we know as Jesus) he'd just brought into being.

    There is no telling how long Father and Son continued as the only 2 beings in existence before the Father decided to bestow upon the Son the task of bringing additional similar beings into the picture by creating the Heavenly host of angels. The Father would have been the source of creative energy, via what we know as Holy Spirit. Recall the account of the woman who touched Jesus' garment and Holy Spirit went out from him (Mark 5:25-34). In a similar way, Jesus may have been granted access to God's power without the Father having to okay every decision and every action of Jesus in his task of creating. This allows both Father and Son to be credited with creation while retaining their separateness.

    Being a literal "chip off the old block", Jesus bears the likeness of God in every way: Personality, essence, substance, features, etc. For all intents and purposes, Jesus is God (John 1:1) just as Adam was dust (Gen 2:7). Obviously, none of us or the entirety of all humanity constitute all dust, as there is plenty left over. Likewise, Jesus - while being made of God - is made of a small portion of God. Any time Jesus says "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father", "the Father and I are one", "the Father is in me and I am in the Father", these verses fit without having to contradict things like "no man has seen God", "the Father is greater than I", or Jesus praying or referring to his Father as a separate and higher entity. This understanding is allowed in the light of all Scripture and doesn't invite arguments where the Bible seems to contradict itself and argue both sides.

    This understanding certainly isn't the JW understanding or Arianism (as I've been accused of holding), yet it also isn't the Trinity, Oneness, or Modalism. When one forms their doctrine based on parroting human understanding, they create the straw man that will be used against them. I don't believe in the JW Jesus or the Trinity Jesus, but the Biblical Jesus, as described in all Scripture and not just some "proof texts" that are cherry-picked to establish a man-made belief while ignoring other Bible truths. We must make our beliefs fit within the Bible, not attempt to shoehorn the Bible into our beliefs. Obviously, this understanding didn't come of myself, but from digging for truth in Scripture (Pro 2:1-6; 3:5) and avoiding putting my faith in human understandings (Jer 10:23, Psa 146:3) which attempt to confine God and Jesus in a box of their making rather than allowing the Bible to explain what we need to know and leaving anything not stated as unknown and unnecessary.

  • tec
    tec

    I agree with much of what Won'tleave posted.

    God existed always. Out of Him came His Son. The firstborn of all creation. Not a created being. Born from the Father; born of God. The light that came into being, which came from God.

    Same nature. Not the same being.

    Tammy

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    I just finished reading about the Heresy of Arianisim and it is quite interesting the simliarities that it shares with the JW doctrine, though it doens't go to the level of saying that Jesus and an angel.

    Yet the opposition to it was clear, if Jesus is just a created being then, like any created being he can't know his creator, no more than anything we create can know Us.

    If Jesus was not God incarnate ( shared the same nature as God) then he could not forgive Sin or judge and his sacrfifice would not mean salvation.

    The trinity doctrine tried to answer the issue but was, of course, lacking in the correct language and took the language of the day.

    Certainly if we were to develop a doctrine NOW with our language it probably would not have been much like the Trinity but that is hindsight, almost 2000 tears of hindsight.

  • godrulz
    godrulz

    PS: are you a modalist/oneness then? Arian, modalist, trinitarian are the main options.

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Why would God be so overly concernedl about some misunderstanding that humans have of his nature or his son's nature and make that an issue one which ones eternal life is at stake,, sound like some small minds made that one up to avoid loosing members.

    It's l

    It's like God saying "get it right or I'll freakin kill ya". When you really think about it.

  • tec
    tec

    If you're doing as Christ said to do, and loving as He loved... then you know Him. In spirit.

    Tammy

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit