When I was at the Memorial this year, they specifically told me that the tetra was in the original NT MSS, but has been removed by trinitarians, etc.?! (Hebrew Matthew, etc.). They said this because it was specifically taught in their publications over the years, a pathetic WT rookie mistake (surely you can find this evidence in your own writings or do I know things about WT that you do not?). This is clearly taught by WT, so why are you denying this?! This is NOT a straw man, but objective representation. I showed her from the KIT that Kurios/theos were the words used for Jehovah/Jesus in the NT MSS (all of them with none supporting tetra....1000s). Perhaps some of your JW friends here can tune you in. If I am wrong, I will stand corrected, but this is exactly what JWs have told me over the years and what I have read in their literature (I do have a good number of old and newer publications and photoreprints are available in counter-cult books or online). I am not guilty of straw man, but you are guilty of argumentum ad hominem (personal attacks to discredit me; you cannot even say I am apostate, because I have never been JW). Perhaps the WT has recently watered down their tune, but this would be because 'Christendom' has repeatedly exposed their shoddy pseudo-scholarship, not because GB is getting new light from Jehovah (truth does not get truer, but error can move to truth or truth can move to error) or are so smart (if they were smart, they would have never taken a liberal, nonsensical position that is not evidence based). If they are so wrong about this, what else are they wrong about? Speaking of straw men, the WT repeatedly makes a straw man trinity and knocks it down (3 headed god; 3 gods, etc.).
The trouble with Christianity. TRINITY.
by whereami 209 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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WontLeave
@godrulz
The tetragrammaton is Hebrew, so why would it be in the NT, which was written in Greek? You may be thinking of the Septuagint, which is the OT translated into Greek. This would be what 1st-Century Jews and Christians read and the original Hebrew of the Divine Name has been found in copies. Perhaps even some JWs you have spoken with made this mistake, but I've researched the subject and never found evidence the Society has published anything indicating any NT copies were found to contain the Divine Name. They have made it clear where the OT is quoted and the Divine Name occurred, it's assumed the 1st-Century speaker or writer would have been using the wording from the Septuagint and the Hebrew Divine Name would have probably been used. Granted, there are some places where it is unsubstantiated conjecture to place the Divine Name, but the majority are logical.
With the long-standing (false) understanding among Jews that the Divine Name wasn't to be used at all and the many early writings lost from the destruction of the Temple in 70, it's not much of a stretch to assume the Divine Name occurred in the NT and had been removed long before the Trinity dogma was invented. If anyone did it, it would actually have been Jews removing the Divine Name; not Trinitarians.
I'm not exactly sure why you're bashing the Society so much in a forum full of ex- and disgruntled JWs. You act like we're all defending the Governing Body and making them out to be modern-day apostles. As much as I dislike it, your ignorance of JW-related subjects along with your insistence on repeatedly addressing them has me defending people I don't particularly care for, because I am a lover of truth. Granted, many on this forum are so filled with hate for the Watchtower, they're on board with any negativity aimed at it. I'm not interested in who is right, but what is right. If the Watchtower woke up tomorrow and realized the error of their ways, stopped worshiping itself, revoked the man-made rules, and started permitting Christian freedom, I'd be in the front row at the next meeting.
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LV101
Wontleave "If the Watchtower woke up tomorrow and realized the error of their ways, stopped worshipping itself, revoked the man-made rules, and started permitting Christian freedom, I'd be in the front row at the next meeting." IF ONLY --- can you imagine how successful they could have been w/out turning into despots and liars. Not that other religions have it all together but JW's have a lot right and, unfortunately, a lot wrong as Ray Franz talked about in his book (i think Christian Freedom) but we've experienced first hand.
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jah1914
Man I had to post to this thread just so I would have a way to come back and reference it. Good stuff, and I particularly like your reasoning wontleave, although I am of the opionon that we are all guessing and when we die we will ultimately find out what is true or not.
One question about this thread though. Seems like most of the arguments have centered the equality or not of God and Jesus. So what scriptures support HS being the same as God? @godrulz if all of your reasoning was accurate at best you would have a TwinNITY not a TriNITY
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godrulz
The personality and Deity of the Holy Spirit is also defensible. All 3 persons are not usually mentioned in every verse, but are in a few. The LXX is OT and is quoted in the NT. The point is that YHWH/Jehovah is not used in NT Greek MSS ever, so kurios/theos/Lord/God identity is determined by context.
wontleave: you are underestimating the grip WT has on you and overestimating its potential to be of God in any sense. People need to repent, renounce WT, and embrace the Bible. You are at least in transit, but have a long way to go. Being distanced from WT is still not being saved by grace through faith in Christ as God alone.
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tec
People need to repent, renounce WT, and embrace the Bible.
How about embrace Christ, who is far more than the bible.
Tammy
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godrulz
If one embraces the Bible, they will embrace Christ (if properly translated and interpreted vs JWs). I have often said here that the issue is faith in Christ, the true Christ (Jn. 14:6; Acts 4:12; Jn. 3:16). Trusting a generic, false christ that is counterfeit is worthless. Pseudo-Christian cults like JWs and Mormons claim to believe in Jesus, but it is a different Jesus/gospel than the biblical one (Gal. 1:6-10; 2 Cor. 11:4; Jude 3). 2 Tim. 2:24-26 is my prayer for all JWs/ex-JWs.
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tec
If one embraces the Bible, they will embrace Christ (if properly translated and interpreted vs JWs).
Yes, well, that's a pretty big if. Lots of terrible things have been done by people who embrace the bible, and think they have it right and so know Christ. Burning people at the stake for one. Wars being fought in the name of God, and/or Christ.
Nearly every different group thinks that theirs is the proper translation and interpretation.
Which is why I say that it is Christ who needs to be embraced, more than the bible. The bible can be a tool to help, but it can also hinder, as you say.
Tammy
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godrulz
Men, not the Bible (Word of God) is the problem. Yes, many groups and men misuse the Bible or live contrary to it. We would not know about Christ apart from it, so it is still the authoritative revelation (not WT books, etc.).
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WontLeave
@godrulz
Actually, I understood the Father/Son relationship from reading the Bible, then did research to find which churches understood this simple Bible truth rather than inventing a non-existent Father-Son combo. I joined JWs because they understand this and many other things from the Bible accurately. The JW doctrine, for the most part, is their best quality. Their failing is mostly in their attitude, man-made rules, and elevation of their leadership to Christ-like positions.
You never did answer the simple question: When Jesus was baptized on earth, the Father was acknowledging him as his son from Heaven, and the Holy Spirit was sent by the Father to anoint the Son, where was God, since there is only one yet all three of these (in your mind) is God? Was God in Heaven, on Earth, or making the trip between?