by yadda yadda 2 50 Replies latest jw friends
This calculating or crunching of numbers that supposedly carry a symbolic significance, reveals the inherent corruption of the WTS.
publishing house. Would God or Jesus choose this corrupt maligning organization as their own channel of communication to all mankind.
Hardly for profiteering false prophets/teachers are sinners unto themselves.
@yadda yadda 2:
How can it be that Satan is the ruler of this world and "the whole world" is in his power, and yet in 1914 "The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever." (Rev 11:15). It is the Watchtower Society's official teaching that Rev 11:15 was fulfilled in 1914.
The permission God has given to Satan to exercise rulership over earth's inhabitants expired in 1914 AD. Yes, Satan had been the ruler over the kingdom of the world since Adam and his wife's eviction from Eden, but in 607 BC Satan was served with what would be equivalent to a lawsuit for possession of a foreclosed home in which he has "occupancy" as ruler of the world. Until 1914, Satan has the legal right to live in that "house" for Jehovah had decreed that that house would belong to no one "until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him." (Ezekiel 21:27) The year 607 BC was when "the appointed times of the nations" began. (Luke 21:24; Daniel 4:25)
When 1914 arrived, however, Jehovah God issued to Jesus a writ of execution against Satan's occupancy so that "the kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ." (Revelation 11:15) You may have heard is said that "occupancy is 9/10 of the law, and the application of this axiom means that Satan was judicially evicted in 1914 from his occupancy as ruler of the world, for when Michael and his angels cast Satan and his angels down from heaven, this was equivalent to his getting a five-day "Notice to Vacate" here in California, which has been the cause of 'great anger to Satan, for he knows that he only has a short period a time' before he is finally evicted from occupancy. (Revelation 12:7-9, 12) The year 1914 AD was when "the appointed times of the nations" were fulfilled.
Now where this analogy falls apart is whereas when a judge issue a writ for occupancy, the sheriff then becomes an agent of the court to execute the writ against the unlawful occupant, and the sheriff is not also the litigant to whom the writ was given, but Jesus is not only the litigant, but he will soon act as "the sheriff" to evict Satan from occupancy as ruler of the world.
Is the world ruled by Satan or Jesus? Does Jesus have world power or Satan?
Just as the unlawful occupant of a foreclosed home is still in possession of keys that permit him to enter the premises where he lives, Satan is still in possession of "keys" that permit him the freedom to act as ruler of the earth, even though Jesus, since 1914, has a writ of possession signed by Jehovah, who adjudged Jesus as owner of the premises, that is to say, 'the kingdom of the world did at that time become the kingdom of both Jehovah and Jesus Christ' at this time, so you might say that while Jesus does have the writ of possession, Satan still lives in the house as the unlawful occupant and so he continues to exercise authority over the "kingdom of the world" since he has never surrendered, nor has he any intention of surrendering, the keys to the house in which he lives. Satan is not leaving voluntarily, and he will only be giving up his occupancy of the house that is no longer his to live in when the sheriff comes to evict him from the premises and not before.
@djeggnog
Know what's funniest about Egg's ridiculous foreclosure analogy? Satan was IN HEAVEN when Jesus supposedly took ownership of "the house" in 1914 AND THEN put Satan INTO IT. Why? So he could KICK HIM OUT of it.
Evidently, Jesus and Satan are one.
The beginning of Jesus’ rule would not be marked by immediate peace on the earth. Revelation 12:7-12 shows that just after receiving Kingdom power, Jesus would oust Satan and his demons from heaven. This would mean woe for the earth, but the Devil has only “a short period of time” left. During this short period of time, the earth's dominion is divided and Satan only exercises dominion over those that are spiritually blind.
If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4
Others take refuge in God's Kingdom, in Jehovah's dominion.
Anyone dwelling in the secret place of the Most High Will procure himself lodging under the very shadow of the Almighty One. Psalm 91:1
Djeggnog and SuperSpook, thank you for your attempts but you have not answered my simple question: what exactly has Jesus been ruling over since 1914?
Ousting Satan and writs of execution and judicial eviction etc is not the same as rulership! Can you see the difference?
I repeat: Who exactly has Jesus been ruling over since 1914? Who are the individual subjects of the Kingdom since 1914?
If Satan still has temporary rulership and Daniel 2:44 has not yet been fulfilled, then Satan and the governmental systems are still clearly ruling the planet, are they not? Revelation talks about a beast on a throne which gets its power from the dragon, Satan. This beast on its diabolical throne still holds total rulership over the world, correct?
Is it the anointed remnant that Jesus began ruling over since 1914? No, he has been ruling over his anointed brothers in the "kingdom of the son of his love" since Pentecost 33 CE, correct?
Is it the 'great crowd' or the organisation in general that he is ruling over since 1914? No, I see nothing in scripture or any of the Society's publications claiming this. Anyway, the 'great crowd' does not form until the great tribulation we are told.
This is why, in my humble opinion, the only explanation that makes sense is the gnostic one. If Jesus and Satan are, instead of distinct sentient beings, the Christ energy/consciousness and human egos, then whoever is ruling depends on what's going on inside each individual person. This then becomes reflected in the state of the world. Edgar Cayce says that during the thousand-year reign, which is not a literal number but symbolic for an eon of time, egos will not be allowed to incarnate on earth. We will have compassionate, service-to-others oriented humans being born with an awakened consciousness, instead of the animalistic, service-to-self idiots that proliferate presently.
There's more good news: an awakened being vibrating at a higher frequency of love puts out enough positive energy to offset thousands of negative assholes!
Happy Easter everybody! Off to visit family.......
@yadda yadda 2:
Djeggnog and SuperSpook, thank you for your attempts but you have not answered my simple question: what exactly has Jesus been ruling over since 1914?
I admit seeing your question --
Can a JW apologist please explain to me with scriptural support exactly what Jesus has been ruling over since 1914?
-- but I intentionally ignored this portion of your post since you were seeking, or so I thought at the time, "a JW apologist" to provide an explanation as to that over which Jesus has been ruling since 1914. You see, contrary to what you and others here might believe, I am not a JW apologist and you shot yourself in the proverbial foot by loading your question by restricting responses to "JW apologists."
Now I don't care that you like to cast active Jehovah's Witnesses as "JW apologists," but I resent your making it appear that if I happen to have a different point of view regarding than you regarding what things the Bible teaches on this topic or on any topic that you might name, that because my beliefs resonate with the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses, then I am someone one that is positing ridiculous arguments just to justify the policies adhered to and followed by Jehovah's Witnesses, like the Civil War apologists that posit ridiculous arguments just to justify their viewpoint as to the virtue and morality of the Confederate States' desire to preserve their right to own slaves.
If you were able -- and I don't think many of the folks here on JWN are -- to listen to my arguments carefully, I believe you would realize that they aren't ridiculous ones at all, but are quite sound were you able to consider them objectively, which you may not be able to do. If you must view me as "a JW apologist," then this will like retard our discussion here and other discussions. Your choice.
Ousting Satan and writs of execution and judicial eviction etc is not the same as rulership! Can you see the difference?
No, the analogy I provided is about rulership, "possession" so to speak of "the kingdom of the world." Maybe you cannot see the connection, but there it is.
Who exactly has Jesus been ruling over since 1914?
The anointed remnant of the spiritual Israel and the "other sheep," who are the ones wearing the white robes in serving Jehovah God day and night in His spiritual temple as kingdom proclaimers in obedience to Jesus' command to preach the good news about God's Kingdom, for it is based on the reaction of those hearing the message that Jesus will separate the sheep from the goats. The anointed ambassadors of the Kingdom and the "other sheep," who are envoys of it, are both united in worship of Jehovah God, and while 144,000 were chosen by God to become co-rulers with Christ in the Kingdom, the latter have themselves chosen to live under Christ's rulership and are thus exercising faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Ransomer and their King. Let me repeat this for emphasis: Those who today represent the "other sheep" that did not come to exist until we came to realize after 1931 that those who were exercising faith in Jesus without a heavenly calling have chosen Jesus' rulership over them and thus recognize Jesus as their king.
Who are the individual subjects of the Kingdom since 1914?
The individual subjects of God's Kingdom are the anointed remnant of the spiritual Israel, and those who have chosen to live under Christ's rulership are themselves subjects of the Kingdom as well.
If Satan still has temporary rulership and Daniel 2:44 has not yet been fulfilled, then Satan and the governmental systems are still clearly ruling the planet, are they not?
Yes.
Revelation talks about a beast on a throne which gets its power from the dragon, Satan. This beast on its diabolical throne still holds total rulership over the world, correct?
Yes.
Is it the anointed remnant that Jesus began ruling over since 1914? No, he has been ruling over his anointed brothers in the "kingdom of the son of his love" since Pentecost 33 CE, correct?
My answer to this question is yes, that Jesus has been ruling over the anointed remnant of the spiritual Israel since 33 AD, which means that Jesus has continued to rule over them since 1914.
Is it the 'great crowd' or the organisation in general that he is ruling over since 1914? No, I see nothing in scripture or any of the Society's publications claiming this. Anyway, the 'great crowd' does not form until the great tribulation we are told.
Technically, you're absolutely right, that the Lord Jesus Christ isn't ruling over "the great crowd," for no "great crowd" emerges until the great tribulation occurs, and none of our publications have ever suggesting otherwise (which makes me wonder why it is you are even asking this question), but, as I say above, the Lord Jesus Christ does, in fact, rule over those of the "other sheep" that exercise faith in him as their Ransomer and King.
But here's the point I would make here, @yadda yadda 2: If one doesn't have appreciation for the Scriptures, for what they say and mean, then even though I am here able to agree with some of things that you have said here regarding what the books of Daniel and Revelation state, and what many other scriptures, that I decided not to quote in my responses, state, I don't believe none of this matters in the grand scheme of things since the Bible wasn't written for everyone, just as Jesus' ransom sacrifice is not going to be appreciated by everyone now living for whom he died.
As you read this post today, @yadda yadda 2, this may be for you the very last appeal that Jehovah makes through me that you become reconciled to Him through Christ. I take what the Scriptures say quite seriously and I realize that you, for whatever reason, may not, which is your choice, but whatever your objections may be to the preaching campaign of Jehovah's Witnesses throughout the world with the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses taking the lead in providing an organized approach to how this work is being accomplished in the earth, the preaching of the good news is the touchstone by means of which the entire world of mankind will be judged, and so you need to know that whether it is in the year 2012, in the year 2016 or in the year 2025, God's will is going to soon be accomplished to Jehovah's satisfaction with or without your help, and then the end will come.
@djeggnog
Eggnog - you really believe that throughout the last 2000 years there have only been 144000 Christians?
Of course the 144000 were sealed in 1935.
Ohh but it wasn't.
Yes you really are STUPID for a self proclaimed genius.
Can we just go on and admit the extremely flawed logic in this WHOLE doctrine. The whole point of rulership (in addition to governing) is to be recognized as such. Either you're ruling or you aren't. The idea that while Satan controls everything while jesus is ruling in the midst of his enemies with the only evidence of his rulership being a poorly executed and archaic door-to-door marketing campaign is LUDICROUS.
Jesus is ruling, but its an INVISIBLE rulership. Think about that - an INVISIBLE rulership. That's retarded! I might as well say I'm ruling - you just can't see it yet. The WTBS have run out of ideas with this one and the closer we get to 2014 which marks 100 years of kingdom rule, the more ridiculous this sounds. What has this rulership accomplished? If we apply just a smattering of thought and logic to this, we should see that either Jesus needs to be impeached due to not accomplishing NONE of his campaign platform or the idea needs to be expunged from JW dogma/doctrine due to its OBVIOUS inaccuracy.
