How could Jesus be ruling the world since 1914 yet Satan is the ruler of the world?

by yadda yadda 2 50 Replies latest jw friends

  • keyser soze
    keyser soze
    If you were able -- and I don't think many of the folks here on JWN are -- to listen to my arguments carefully, I believe you would realize that they aren't ridiculous ones at all, but are quite sound were you able to consider them objectively,

    Has it occurred to you that most people here have considered JW doctrines objectively, and that is why we are no longer JWs, despite the great personal sacrifices leaving the religion entails?

    You proceed from the same false assumption about "apostates" that all JWs have- that we pick holes in their teachings because we are "angry and embittered" ex-JWs. The opposite is true. We have become "angry and embittered" ex-JWs because of all the holes we have discovered, because we have realized their claims of "truth" and "spiritual paradise" are an illusion, because we have come to the conclusion that they are as full of shit as anyone else.

  • The Finger
    The Finger

    In the Wt August 15th page 507 1974

    "Hence, when C.T.Russell began publishing a new religious magazine in July 1874, it was called "Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's presence."

    "This invisible presence was expected to continue until the Gentile Times ended in 1914, when the Gentile nations would be destroyed and the remnant of the "chaste virgins" class would be glorified with their Bridegroom in heaven by death and resurrection to live by the spirit."

    In the footnote,

    "In 1943 the Watch Tower Society's book "The Truth Shall Make You Free" did away with the nonexistent extra 100 years in the period of the Judges and place the end of 6,000 years of man's existence in the 1970's. It also fixed the beginning of Christ's presence , not in 1874, but in 1914 C.E.

    It seems that it wasn't until 1943 that they realised they hadn't seen the "Sign" of Christ's presence before 1914.

    In 1993/4 they realised they hadn't seen the "Sign" of Matthew 24:30 although for years they had claimed they had.

    It would seem to me all rather unreliable as to what they have seen and what they haven't.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Each and every EX-JW needs to memorize this and be able to recite it.

    It is one of the strongest refutations possible.

    It seems that it wasn't until 1943 that they realised they hadn't seen the "Sign" of Christ's presence before 1914.

    In 1993/4 they realised they hadn't seen the "Sign" of Matthew 24:30 although for years they had claimed they had.

  • djeggnog
    djeggnog

    @Terry:

    I found your piece in Post 10716 to be written rather well, and despite the typos (for which yours truly is famous) provided an excellent recitation of history of the religion practiced by the Jews until it was built upon by Christianity. You didn't say this exactly, but I got your drift. What I found amazing about this history of religion you recounted is that no mention whatsoever was made of Islam, which in my reading of history, figured mightily into the history of religion as well, what with Abraham being a major patriarchical figure in Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

    While well-written, your Post 10716 is very dangerous to the minds of those that cannot discern when they are reading an agenda-driven piece, so with this quick response, I thought I should let every lurker that read your post here know that one clear way to determine when a post is "agenda-driven" is when it leads to the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses and, by extension, Jehovah's Witnesses pursuing its worship of God using their own interpretation of the Bible. I don't really know what it is about Jehovah's Witnesses that brings out the ire in some folks, but some people seem to believe, and quite strongly, that Jehovah's Witnesses are using the Bible to force people to unite with them in their worship of God, that people are unitedly worshipping Jehovah because of being duped to do so through they manipulation of the scriptures in order to give people false hope.

    You believe the Bible to be based on a "false premise," and I think it to be ok for you to believe this to be the case, @Terry, for I believe everyone is entitled to have their own opinion. But let me ask you this one question: Why is it that you feel the people that are becoming Jehovah's Witnesses are not entitled to have their own opinions? Why, for example, are you entitled to decide, based on your recounting of religious history, that something is wrong with the Bible and with the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses believing that what thing the Bible teaches are true, but other people are not entitled to decide for themselves whether or not they believe something to be wrong with the Bible and with the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses?

    It's clear to me, @Terry, that you've given quite a bit of consideration to the things you believe and to the things that Jehovah's Witnesses believe (and/or to the things that you think we believe), and you are evidently comfortable with your beliefs, and you have decided that the teachings found in the Bible are based on a false premise and are not for you, but I, too, have given quite a bit of consideration to the things I believe and to the things that I've learned from Jehovah's Witnesses and I'm comfortable with my beliefs, but this seems to bother you for some reason.

    Why does this seem to bother you, @Terry? Do you believe I would be happier were I to walk on the "dark side" with you by viewing the Bible as little more than excrement and putting my faith in your beliefs? What is your hope for the future? Is death all you see in your future? I'm not judging you here, but many people I know do not want to live their lives in a state of hopelessness, but they would rather live in hope for a better and brighter future just as they also live in hope of providing a better and brighter future for their own children than they themselves had growing up.

    I am like these people, @Terry, believing in a spiritual Father that cares for us as we would care for our own children, and this belief is based upon the evidence that exists all around us, despite the "dark side" of life we all have to endure today, that demonstrates that our God is a loving Father. But what positive prospects for the future can you offer me? What are your prospects for the future, @Terry?

    You may want me to follow you, but only a weak-minded person would actually be will to follow you to death, unless you happened to have been able to offer them a better hope than the hope I now have by my having learned, through reading and studying the Bible, what things my God, Jehovah, has promised He would do in the future were I to loyally serve Him and keep faith with the Christian principles taught by his son, the Lord Jesus Christ. If you are able to convince me that that for which you are hoping is a better hope than the hope to which the Bible speaks, then I will gladly follow you.

    It seems that it wasn't until 1943 that they realised they hadn't seen the "Sign" of Christ's presence before 1914.

    In 1993/4 they realised they hadn't seen the "Sign" of Matthew 24:30 although for years they had claimed they had.

    You quoted exactly what @The Finger stated in his post, so I suppose @The Finger is one of your disciples, but here's the thing: While Jehovah's Witnesses have wrongly interpreted certain Bible texts many times, and while they have not always gotten it right the first time, one of the things that distinguish them from other Christian denominations is the fact that they are willing to abandon beliefs when they come to realize that such beliefs are premised on wrong conclusions.

    While other Christian denominations seem unwilling to adjust their theological viewpoints, even when they are presented with clear evidence demonstrating flaws in what are essentially the underpinnings of their theological beliefs, because Jehovah's Witnesses embrace Bible truth, we, unlike what other Christian denominations do, distinguish ourselves by championing Bible truth over what we may have thought at one time to have been Bible truth. IOW, Jehovah's Witnesses are honest enough to admit when we were wrong in the early-1900s, in the 1930s, in the 1960s, in the 1990s, and today, and you know what? Our God knows at all times who it is here on earth that is doing their best to do His will, even when He knows we've gotten something wrong.

    @djeggnog

  • wannabefree
    wannabefree

    (Psalm 110:1-2) 110 The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: "Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet." 2 The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, [saying:] "Go subduing in the midst of your enemies."

    ___________________

    If this happened already ...

    “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.” (Rev 11:15)

    To be a subject of this kingdom of the world that has become the kingdom of Christ, wouldn't this apply ....

    (John 3:3-7) . . .Jesus said to him: "Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nic·o·de′mus said to him: "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter into the womb of his mother a second time and be born, can he?" 5 Jesus answered: "Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel because I told you, YOU people must be born again.
  • The Finger
    The Finger

    I think it's interesting that up until 1943 you would have had to believe and teach that Christ had an invisible presence from 1874 in order to recieve your "white robe"

    You would be judged on whether you taught this falsehood or not. You must.

  • The Finger
    The Finger

    Revelation Its Grand Climax At Hand,Page 122

    "J.F. Rutherford, who at this time took the lead in the worldwide preaching work, gave Scriptural proof that the modern-day other sheep are identical with that great crowd of Revelation 7:9. At the climax of this talk, the speaker asked: "Will all those who have the hope of living forever on the earth please stand?" As a large part of the audience stood up, the speaker declared: "Behold! The great multitude!" "

    This great multitude believed and taught and preached Christ invisible return in 1874 to be part of that great crowd of survivors.

    That was in 1935 I think the great multitude of the great multitude is dead.

  • yadda yadda 2
    yadda yadda 2

    Thank you Pirata for finding a Watchtower quote purporting to tell us what Jesus has been ruling over since 1914:

    8 Jesus was granted still more authority in 1914. In that year he was appointed as King of Jehovah’s Messianic Kingdom. When Jesus’ rule began, “war broke out in heaven.” The result? Satan and his demons were hurled to the earth, triggering an era of woe. The rampant wars, crime, terror, disease, earthquakes, and famines that have afflicted modern man remind us that Jesus is ruling in heaven right now. Satan is still “the ruler of this world” for “a short period of time.” (Revelation 12:7-12; John 12:31; Matthew 24:3-7; Luke 21:11) However, Jesus is giving people worldwide the opportunity to accept His rulership.

    So there we have it. Frankly it's not very satisfying. I'm still struggling to know who Jesus has been ruling over since 1914. Surely it can't be confined only to those true Christians who 'accept his rulership', as this quote seems to be suggesting, since Jesus true disciples have always accepted him as King of kings and saviour. They have always recognised that Jesus has had all authority over heaven and earth since 33 AD, just as Jesus said, and as head of the congregation. Long before 1914 his true sheep have been in the 'sheepfold' accepting Jesus as their shepherd and master and/or in the 'kingdom of the son of his love'. Christians have always accepted Jesus' rulership long before 1914. Oh wait, it says "Jesus is ruling in heaven right now" - perhaps he is just ruling over heavenly creatures since 1914, the angels? Oh dear.

    It strikes me as a little absurd, to say that Jesus is ruling in heaven and in the very next breath that Satan is still "the ruler of this world". Thats quite contradictory. Do they not realise how unreasonable that sounds, to assert that in 1914 "The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our lord..." (Rev 11:15) and in the next sentence say that Satan is "the ruler of this world."?

    And if he became king of the messianic kingdom in 1914 then surely that means his 1,000 year reign has started, right?

    Honestly, I just can't buy into any creed with such contradictory and arbitrary scriptural support. Surely a much more sensible and scripturally consistent interpretation is that it's all still in the future, probably beginning with the great tribulation: Jesus coming in power and glory followed by his parousia, the 'sign of the son of man in heaven' (what is this talk about a so-called 'composite sign'?), his ousting Satan and the demons from heaven, the resurrection of the 144k to heaven, the ride of the four horseman of the apocalypse - all future events.

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    And how can Jesus be "granted still more authority in 1914" when he already had "all authority in heaven and on the earth" in 33 AD? How can you be given 'more' than the 'all' you already have?

  • ProdigalSon
    ProdigalSon

    There isn't a single scripture in the entire Bible that says that Jesus will ever walk this earth again. Funny how such an important detail was left out.

    "Christ" is the Divine Spark within [many] humans. Consciousness is "invisible".... 1914 was marked by the King's Chamber of the Giza pyramid. What happened in 1914? Obviously, a shift in consciousness, that manifested as an upheaval of the political order. As the WT points out, things have never been the same since.

    Is it possible that there could come a day when Universal Truth will become firmly established and known by everyone? You saw the first big step toward that end 20 years ago with the advent of the World Wide Web.

    So in actuality, the WT is correct about the "invisible presence", because Jesus is never coming back visibly. The responsibility to save this planet is ours and ours alone. Christ can do nothing without people, and the same goes for Satan. If we all knew that, we wouldn't have been dominated all this time by those who understand the fact that humans determine how the world goes. We are all Co-Creators of reality.

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