And 2025 is NOT soon. If I said I was going to come over your house and that I would be there soon, would you be happy if I showed up 40 years late?
How could Jesus be ruling the world since 1914 yet Satan is the ruler of the world?
by yadda yadda 2 50 Replies latest jw friends
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cantleave
Think about that - an INVISIBLE rulership. That's retarded! I might as well say I'm ruling - you just can't see it yet.
Absolutely. The only other invisible leaders i can think of are weak and dying dictators; but even they get wheeled out for the big occasions.
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djeggnog
@cantleave:
Eggnog - you really believe that throughout the last 2000 years there have only been 144000 Christians?
I don't believe I suggested that between 33 AD and now there have only been 144,000 Christians. I would say that between 33 AD and 1931 there were what remained of the 144,000 anointed Christians here on earth that had a heavenly calling.
Of course the 144000 were sealed in 1935.
It was by the year 1935 when it came to be discerned that the sealing of those who had been sealed in their foreheads -- the 144,000 anointed Christians -- that there were not unsealed Christians, who had not ben called to an earthly hope, who did not have a heavenly calling, but who were associated with the "great multitude" (KJV) or "great crowd" (NWT) that John saw in his vision at Revelation 7:9, and that these were the same "other sheep" that had been identified back in 1931, who were being marked in their foreheads by the man with the secretary's inkhorn at Ezekiel 9:1-11.
Although I really hate posting messages to you, because, quite frankly, about a third of former Jehovah's Witnesses leave our ranks knowing none of the fundamental doctrines about the Christ, and think themselves able to fend for themselves spiritually when discussing the Bible with those of Jehovah's Witnesses that are students of God's word and no more than just the fundamentals, I do so for the sake of the lurkers whenever I feel something I say could benefit those reading these posts thinking that some objection raised by you or someone else that have left our ranks to be valid, when the fact is that hardly any objections raised here on JWN has any merit. It was for this reason that I responded to your post, @cantleave. You really ought to change your attitude and your study habits, otherwise you are going to keep getting things wrong (like confusing things that were discerned in 1931 with things that were discerned in 1935), and maybe consider returning to Jehovah before it becomes too late for you to do so.
@djeggnog wrote:
As you read this post today, @yadda yadda 2, this may be for you the very last appeal that Jehovah makes through me that you become reconciled to Him through Christ. I take what the Scriptures say quite seriously and I realize that you, for whatever reason, may not, which is your choice, but whatever your objections may be to the preaching campaign of Jehovah's Witnesses throughout the world with the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses taking the lead in providing an organized approach to how this work is being accomplished in the earth, the preaching of the good news is the touchstone by means of which the entire world of mankind will be judged, and so you need to know that whether it is in the year 2012, in the year 2016 or in the year 2025, God's will is going to soon be accomplished to Jehovah's satisfaction with or without your help, and then the end will come.
@Botzwana wrote:
And 2025 is NOT soon. If I said I was going to come over your house and that I would be there soon, would you be happy if I showed up 40 years late?
I recall reading somewhere in the Bible -- and maybe you do, too -- where it was mentioned how 1,000 years are as one day with Jehovah, so when I said "soon," I wasn't so much speaking from a human standpoint of reckoning time, but according to God's standpoint. Maybe you know, maybe you don't know, or maybe you know, but choose not to believe, but it was Jehovah God that gave us the sun, moon and stars, not just to provide visible evidence to us of His existence (which only the foolish among mankind deny), but in order "to make a division between the day and the night ... [that] they must serve as signs and for seasons and for days and years" (Genesis 1:14) so that among other things, we, His, human creation, could mark time.
If you were to tell you that you could catch a ride with me to a basketball game at Staples Center here in Los Angeles on the condition that you get to my house by 6:55 pm, since I intend to get to Staples Center and be in my box before tip-off, and you told me not to worry, that you'd be here "soon," whether you meant a minute before 6:55 pm, 15 minutes before 6:55 pm or whatever it was you meant by "soon" would be fine from a human standpoint as long as you got to my house by 6:55 pm. Now no one knows the "day and hour" (Matthew 24:36), but some of us know and believe that we are living in momentous times, the period that the Bible refers to as "the last days" and the "time of the end," and so whenever it is that the end comes, on the condition that all of the things that Jesus foretold must occur before the end comes, then it follows that from God's standpoint the end will be coming "soon."
@djeggnog
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djeggnog
This is a repost of my previous post, which contained a typo in it (shown in red type), now corrected in this repost.
If I were to tell you that you could catch a ride with me to a basketball game at Staples Center here in Los Angeles on the condition that you get to my house by 6:55 pm, since I intend to get to Staples Center and be in my box before tip-off, and you told me not to worry, that you'd be here "soon," whether you meant a minute before 6:55 pm, 15 minutes before 6:55 pm or whatever it was you meant by "soon" would be fine from a human standpoint as long as you got to my house by 6:55 pm. Now no one knows the "day and hour" (Matthew 24:36), but some of us know and believe that we are living in momentous times, the period that the Bible refers to as "the last days" and the "time of the end," and so whenever it is that the end comes, on the condition that all of the things that Jesus foretold must occur before the end comes, then it follows that from God's standpoint the end will be coming "soon."
@djeggnog
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moshe
Wow, Lars, Obves and MR Eggnogg are all in the building at the same time. Hey guys, why no do a topic, together?
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OBVES
I think it is better to say God is ruling this physical world . But God allowed Satan to rule over the evil people to rule in their spiritual world .
http://www.focusonthebible2011.com.When the true christian religion died in 106 AD there was no need for Satan to interfere avctively in man's affairs so he was chained for symbolic 1000 years which is 1772 years to 1878 AD and since the defunct true christian religion was beginning to re-emerge Satan had to be loosed to pull mankind away from knowing this new christian religion being revived .
So the rule by Satan is linked to the existence of the true religion .
There was no need for Satan to actively rule in 1589 AD or 1777 AD.
Now since the prediction for September 29 ,2011 AD is set forth Satan is raging over that and uses his all available means to destroy this message !So his rule much more enhanced now as the last resort . This same idea could have been used in 1914 AD prediction which was a very important date .
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yadda yadda 2
Thanks for the further clarification djeggnog.
It's good that we can agree that Satan and the governments of mankind are clearly ruling this world, not Jesus since 1914. I think the actual evidence of our own eyes unmistakably supports that.
Now let me get this straight: you are saying that when Jesus became King in 1914 he has ONLY been reigning over the anointed remnant of the spiritual Israel, and over those who have chosen to live under his rulership who you identify as the 'other sheep'. I believe that's your position, right?
Could you kindly support that with scriptures and quotes from the Watchtower Society publications, because I noticed that you failed to do that in your earlier post. I'm curious to know because I have never seen a single statement published by the Watchtower Society that says what you are saying, ie, that the only subjects of Jesus rulership since he became king in 1914 are the anointed remnant and the other sheep. I can't find a single scripture to directly or indirectly support that.
Presumably that also applies to those of the 144,000 who were resurrected shortly after 1914? They also are only ruling as kings over the anointed remnant and the 'other sheep', but neither Jesus nor the 144,000 have been ruling over anything else since 1914, right? Would you mind also showing me some scriptures and quotes from the Watchtower Society that supports that. I'm struggling with that concept because my New World Translation at Revelation 20:4 and 6 says that those who receive the first resurrection and sit on thrones rule with Christ for a thousand years; but if the thousand year reign of the 144,000 and Jesus has not yet started, which is the WTBS's position, then who are the resurrected 144,000 presently ruling over? What have they been doing since 1918 or 1919 when they are supposed to have been resurrected to heaven?
And can you please explain how it is possible that these 'other sheep' are presently the subjects of God's reigning Kingdom since 1914, as you assert, since the Watchtower says that Matthew 25:34 is fulfilled in the future. How can the 'other sheep' be subjects of the kingdom government since 1914 and yet they have not 'inherited the kingdom' yet?
I must admit, I'm struggling with this because, as far as I can tell, the Watchtower Society officially interprets every statement by Jesus himself relating to his enthronement and rulership as having a future fulfillment, namely:
Mathew 24: 29-31
Matthew 25: 31-33
Mark 13: 24-27
Luke 21: 27
I'm also a little perplexed at your comment: "Jesus has been ruling over the anointed remnant of the spiritual Israel since 33 AD, which means that Jesus has continued to rule over them since 1914." Hmmm...so what you are saying is that Jesus was already ruling over the anointed remnant since 33 CE but in 1914 he began ruling over them. That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Can you please explain, backed up by scriptures and Watchtower quotes, in what way Jesus began ruling over the anointed remnant in an especially different way in 1914 than how he has always ruled over them since 33 CE?
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Terra Incognita
Moshe: "Wow, Lars, Obves and MR Eggnogg are all in the building at the same time. Hey guys, why no do a topic, together?"
Would that not be like having three schizophrenics, who each believe they're Jesus Christ, thrown in the same room together?
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kurtbethel
That is an easy one to answer, if you have been paying attention. You see, according to the Watchtower, Jesus and Satan are the SAME PERSON.
The Watchtower teaches that Abaddon is Satan, in The Finished Mystery page 38.
"[And] they [had a] HAVE THEIR king [over them]. — The same king as exercises general rulership over all the ecclesiastical affairs of this present evil world. [Which is] the angel of the [bottomless pit] ABYSS. — "The prince of the power of the air." — Eph. 2:2. Whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon. — And he is "a bad one," sure enough. — 2 Cor. 4:4. But in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. — That is, Destroyer. But in plain English his name is Satan, the Devil.
In the Revelation ClimaXX (spiritual pornography) book we are told that Abaddon is Jesus. page 148
Rather than announce the incoming Kingdom of God, Christendom’s clergy have chosen to remain with Satan’s world. They want no part with the locust band and their King, concerning whom John now observes: “They have over them a king, the angel of the abyss. In Hebrew his name is Abaddon [meaning “Destruction”], but in Greek he has the name Apollyon [meaning “Destroyer”].” (Revelation 9:11) As “angel of the abyss” and “Destroyer,” Jesus had truly released a plaguing woe on Christendom. But more is to follow!
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djeggnog
@yadda yadda 2:
It's good that we can agree that Satan and the governments of mankind are clearly ruling this world, not Jesus since 1914. I think the actual evidence of our own eyes unmistakably supports that.
Jesus has been ruling "in the midst of his enemies" since the year 1914, even though you may not be able to discern this fact, and are evidently of the belief that if you cannot see Jesus actually ruling, then this would be unmistakable evidence that he has not been ruling since 1914, which is not what I have said here at all. Frankly, based on this "standard," I would find it hard to believe that you can discern the fact that Satan has been ruling since the rebellion in Eden, let alone since the year 1914.
Now let me get this straight: you are saying that when Jesus became King in 1914 he has ONLY been reigning over the anointed remnant of the spiritual Israel, and over those who have chosen to live under his rulership who you identify as the 'other sheep'. I believe that's your position, right?
What you say here is pretty close to what I would say: I would say that Jesus has been ruling over spiritual Israel since the year 33 AD, and has continued to do so since the end of the "appointed times" were fulfilled in the year 1914.
Could you kindly support that with scriptures and quotes from the Watchtower Society publications, because I noticed that you failed to do that in your earlier post.
Now why on earth would I do something for you that you could do for yourself? You could visit any one of the local Kingdom Halls near you and tell one of elders associated with that Kingdom Hall to provide such to you, letting him know that you were once one of Jehovah's Witnesses. For all I know, you may be one of those folks that do not respect the Bible and tend to read it whenever you do read it with a view to finding alternative explanations to those provided by Jehovah's Witnesses that make sense to you, and our publications aren't even infallible! Much of the information contained in our publications is dynamic in nature, so that some of what is in them is now outdated and requires supplemental explanations that is available now, but weren't available when they were written.
I really have no interest in providing any quotes here from Watchtower publications regarding the 144,000 or the "other sheep" for your benefit, but I'm willing to post here, as an example, quotations from other threads to which I've posted regarding the generation of the sign that began in 1914, which topic had been discussed at length here in various threads started last year here on JWN while a few of the "Remain Close to Jehovah!" District Conventions were still being held in various cities. I would rather talk to you about the Bible using the Bible, and nothing more than this, since whatever you would find in our publications are things that I am qualified to discuss with you since in missionary work often all that a missionary has in their possession is their Bible and not even one stitch of our Bible-based literature.
There have been some interesting topics raised on JWN based on one or more Watchtower articles on which I've commented, and in a different thread, I quoted a "Question From Readers" article that appeared in the September 1, 1952 issue of the Watchtower, which I'd like to bring to your attention since based on the question you asked in this thread, it seems to me that you might appreciate a snippet from what things I posted in this other thread regarding what Jesus stated at Matthew 24:34:
[T]he Bible ... gives no number of years for a generation.... [I]n the texts mentioning the generation [Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32]..., we are not to take generation as meaning the average time for one generation to be succeeded by the next, as Webster’s does in its 33-year approximation; but rather... "the average lifetime of man." Three or even four generations may be living at the same time, their lives overlapping....
[W]e could not calculate from such a figure the date of Armageddon, for the texts here under discussion do not say God’s battle comes right at the end of this generation, but before its end. To try to say how many years before its end would be speculative. The texts merely set a limit that is sufficiently definite for all present practical purposes. Some persons living A.D. 1914 when the series of foretold events began will also be living when the series ends with Armageddon. All the events will come within the span of a generation.
However, Jehovah's Witnesses subsequently came to understand from an article that appeared about 60 years later in the April 15, 2010 Watchtower (page 10) that it cannot be stated for a certainty that what Jesus meant at Matthew 24:34 regarding the "generation" that would "not pass away" before all of the things he indicated had occurred during the conclusion of this system of things referred to his anointed followers that were alive in 1914, which is what we had previously speculated Jesus meant, but that Jesus may well have been referring to the generation of the sign in which the lives of some of his anointed followers that were alive in 1914 during the generation of the sign might well overlap the lives of some of his anointed followers that would see the end of this system of things:
"[W]e do well to keep in mind several things about the word "generation": It usually refers to people of varying ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period; it is not excessively long; and it has an end. (Ex. 1:6) How, then, are we to understand Jesus’ words about "this generation""? He evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation."
Not many Jehovah's Witnesses today are aware that we had speculated almost 60 years before this Watchtower article appeared in 2010 that Jesus may have been referring to his anointed followers as contemporaries of the sign, whose lives may overlap during the generation of the sign that began in 1914. With this understanding, there is no reason that anyone should be attempting to force two, three or even four generations into becoming a single generation since Jesus specifically spoke of "this generation," which is only one generation, the one that began in 1914 and ends with the great tribulation.
Just as Exodus 1:6 states in referring to the death of Joseph, it not only refers to all of Joseph's brothers, but this verse also refers to them by saying "and also all his brothers and all that generation," so based on how old Joseph was when he died -- which was 110 -- then Joseph's contemporaries would have been "all [of] his brothers," whose lives overlapped Joseph's, as well as Joseph's two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim, who were both living when their father died, whose lives also overlapped Joseph's, making them Joseph's contemporaries.
Thus, the generation of Joseph began with Joseph's birth in 1767 BC, but ended, not with the death of Joseph, but with the death of Joseph's contemporaries, including Levi, for example, who died some 22 years after Joseph at age 137 (Exodus 6:16) and the death of Joseph's two sons, both of whom had been born in Egypt. Thus, the generation of Joseph would be at least 110 years + 22 years, or 132 years, plus the longest number of years beyond these 22 years that Manasseh or Ephraim, both of whom were Joseph's contemporaries that survived their father's death.
Those of Jesus' spiritual "brothers" that were alive contemporaneous with the "sign" that became manifest (or "born") in 1914 would correspond to those that became contemporaries of Joseph at his birth, which would include not only Joseph's 11 brothers, but to Joseph's two sons that were alive when Joseph died, they being "all that generation" (Exodus 1:6). Thus, these contemporaries of Joseph's generation would correspond to Jesus' anointed brothers, who from 1914 until now were all contemporaries of the sign as all of them could bear witness to the composite sign that became manifest in 1914.
Start a new thread about this topic and maybe I'll join it, as it does relate to the sign of Jesus' presence when he indicated that he would be ruling "in the midst of his enemies." I really only joined this thread to answer your opening salvo: "How could Jesus be ruling the world since 1914 yet Satan is the ruler of the world?" which I feel I've done.
I'm curious to know because I have never seen a single statement published by the Watchtower Society that says what you are saying, ie, that the only subjects of Jesus rulership since he became king in 1914 are the anointed remnant and the other sheep. I can't find a single scripture to directly or indirectly support that.
Perhaps you should consider a Bible study.
Presumably that also applies to those of the 144,000 who were resurrected shortly after 1914? They also are only ruling as kings over the anointed remnant and the 'other sheep', but neither Jesus nor the 144,000 have been ruling over anything else since 1914, right? Would you mind also showing me some scriptures and quotes from the Watchtower Society that supports that. I'm struggling with that concept because my New World Translation at Revelation 20:4 and 6 says that those who receive the first resurrection and sit on thrones rule with Christ for a thousand years; but if the thousand year reign of the 144,000 and Jesus has not yet started, which is the WTBS's position, then who are the resurrected 144,000 presently ruling over? What have they been doing since 1918 or 1919 when they are supposed to have been resurrected to heaven?
Yes, I would mind.
And can you please explain how it is possible that these 'other sheep' are presently the subjects of God's reigning Kingdom since 1914, as you assert, since the Watchtower says that Matthew 25:34 is fulfilled in the future. How can the 'other sheep' be subjects of the kingdom government since 1914 and yet they have not 'inherited the kingdom' yet?
Of course, I could do that, but I will not do so. I feel I've given you enough already so that if you were truly interested in pursuing a discussion about these things, you will do what is necessary to obtain answers to these questions, rather than relying upon the information provided by anonymous people on a board like this one. In the event you haven't noticed, JWN is put up primarily for the entertainment pleasure of folks that do not necessarily believe the Bible to be God's word and whjo enjoy bashing Jehovah's Witnesses. Of course, not everyone that comes to JWN are here for these purposes, but you cannot have a serious Bible discussions here, for there is always someone (like @thetrueone, @cantleave or @OUTLAW) who will toss a post or two into any thread that reflects their contempt for God and for God-fearing people, usually off-topic commentary.
I'm also a little perplexed at your comment: "Jesus has been ruling over the anointed remnant of the spiritual Israel since 33 AD, which means that Jesus has continued to rule over them since 1914." Hmmm...so what you are saying is that Jesus was already ruling over the anointed remnant since 33 CE but in 1914 he began ruling over them. That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Can you please explain, backed up by scriptures and Watchtower quotes, in what way Jesus began ruling over the anointed remnant in an especially different way in 1914 than how he has always ruled over them since 33 CE?
No, I believe I was quite clear in what things I have said here already, and I'm not really in the habit of quoting Watchtower publications since I am much more comfortable using my own words to explain Bible prophecy to folks anyway. Although it's true that many Jehovah's Witnesses are tied to specific publications and do not feel comfortable speaking without them, not all of us use Watchtower publications when teaching others unless we should be conducting a Bible study in one of them.
@djeggnog