by yadda yadda 2 50 Replies latest jw friends
Interesting thread. I used to think I was the only one who was confused by this apparent contradiction in terms.
I now see it as just a fairy story designed to scare people, i.e. the good guy is in charge, but if you don't do as he says the bogieman will get you!!!
and so he continues to exercise authority over the "kingdom of the world" since he has never surrendered
Once again you open your mouth and we are supplied with a torrent of drivvle! Just because you never let get go of something (in this case authority) which has been taken from you it doesn't mean, and cannot mean, you still have it! When you put forward an analogy and self declare that it falls down because of this or that I have to shut down because you've only created a 'strawman' - not a reasoned response.
It beggars the imagination how JWs expect everybody to jump through hoops and circles to pertpetuate the idea of christianity as a complex thing and needs complex thinking. It's the magician's illusion - create a complex side-show and you'll miss the simple stuff. If the 'foolish and ignoble' were chosen in favour of the educated then why is so much of the doctrine ridiculously convoluted and complex.
One other point, you simply can't have a remnant at the beginning of something... it can ONLY be at the end of a thing! There was no remnant in 33CE - the Remnant, as you call it, could only occur in 1914/1918/1919/1933/1935 and that assumes the JWs are correct as much of it is speculative chronology combined with twisted, warped self-promoting reasoning.
If we have this superior rule taking place within the organization then we should expect there to exist a Spiritual Paradise... that presupposes all are safe within this Kingdom rule. If that is the case, why is there so much harm and injustice within it's confines? If you deny there is harm then I should suggest you interview those who have suffered at it's hands. This is not a strawman argument - it is evidence as the to existence of the whole establishment of the Rigtheous Estate - one which pertains to a Spiritual Paradise; one that JWs say exist because of the King's Authourity having been given to him.
Look at the history of this doctrine. They only changed it to an invisible presence when he failed to come laterally as they predicted. Same as the reason for changing the definition of generation
Jesus has been ruling "in the midst of his enemies" since the year 1914, even though you may not be able to discern this fact, and are evidently of the belief that if you cannot see Jesus actually ruling, then this would be unmistakable evidence that he has not been ruling since 1914, which is not what I have said here at all.
Some points of interest about Ps. 110 and "Go subduing in the midst of your enemies."
1. The word 'subdue' or 'rule' (KJV) has the connotation 'to tread down' like one would with grapes in a winepress.
2. All the cross-references in the NWT to this phrase are texts to do with that 'treading down' of God's enemies, e.g. Ps. 2:9; 45:5; Luke 19:27; Rev. 11:18 - and these are not referring to enemy spirit forces like Satan and his demons, but to people.
3. The previous verse (v.1) about "Sit at my right hand, Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet" had fulfillment in the 1st century, according to the words of the apostles Peter and Paul, and Stephen's vision and the writer of Hebrews (Acts 2:34-36; 1 Pet. 3:22; Eph. 1:20, 21; Acts 7:56; Heb. 8:1). Even the risen Jesus himself testified to the 1st century congregations that he had indeed sat down with his Father on His throne (Rev. 3:21).
In view of the above, the conclusion can be reached that Jesus has been ruling as King at God's right hand since the 1st century waiting to 'tread down' and 'subdue' his enemies, making them his footstool. When he does make his enemies his footstool, according to the Scriptures, we'll all know about it - it'll be evident to friends and foes alike. Any claims about these events happening in 1914 is not in line with the scriptural evidence.
Of course, this still presents a problem about Satan's rulership. 1 John says the world's under the power of the wicked one which would mean Jesus, despite being King, hasn't fully dealt with him yet. But then, that's a similar conundrum JWs have with the 1914 scenario, other than the complication that the Gentile Times were supposed to have ended, the earthly kings having had their day, when it's obvious they haven't.
Well that's disappointing djegnog that you have declined my invitation to provide scriptures and Watchtower quotations to support your unusual idea that Jesus rulership since 1914 is only over the anointed remnant and 'other sheep'. Aren't Christians meant to always be 'ready to make a defense' of their faith? You never seem short of a word or two so I am surprised.
I can only conclude that there are really no scriptures or Watchtower quotes to directly back up your assertion, because of there were then I am sure an utterly devoted JW like yourself would not hesitate to quote them. Since this is a central doctrine of the JW's I would have thought it wouldn't be too hard to find some quotes.
And I'm sorry, but I don't see any 'unmistakeable evidence' whatsoever that Jesus has been ruling since 1914. If you are referring to the wars, famines, pestilence, etc, that Jesus predicted, well, we appear to have seen these things on an unprecedented scale in the last 100 years or so, so I suppose it could mean that Jesus is 'near at the doors' (Matt 24:33). But being 'near' means just that - that he is close but not actually present yet. These things might mean that he is close to taking up kingdom power, not that he has already arrived in kingdom power 97 years ago. Jesus said in Matt 24: 30 that his coming in power would be magnificent, a world-wide phenomenon that will be unmistakeably noticed by everyone by a 'sign' in heaven; not that it would be a secret thing known only to a few thousand bible students.
This also seems to me to be what Jesus was meaning when he compared the days of noah to his presence - the days leading up to the arrival and presence of the flood will be similar to the days leading up to the arrival and presence of Jesus as king. Instead the Society seem to have it back to front.
In other words, you cannot be present until you have first arrived, correct? Actually, if you check your Watchtower CD rom you'll discover that the Society officially teaches that it is in the future when Jesus "..arrives in his glory...[to] sit down on his glorious throne."- Matt 25:31. After his future arrival, which is presumably at the outbreak of the great tribulation, then his presence as earth's new global ruler (rather than Satan) will have commenced, for 1,000 years.
There is only one throne that Jesus described in Matthew 24 and 25, and I cannot for the life of me see where in Jesus words the Society gets the idea that he sits on two thrones, a throne of kingly rulership from 1914 and another throne of 'judgment' in Matt 25:31. That really does seem like something 'beyond what is written' to me.
And despite admitting that Jesus' arriving in Matt 25:31 is future, the Watchtower Society maintains that the 'arriving' of the master to appoint the slave in Matt 24:46 occurred around 1914. That really is quite contradictory don't you think? It's certainly a very convenient interpretation, I'll give them that.
Jesus has always been 'present' in a spiritual sense with his true disciples since 33 CE. He said "I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things." He did not begin to be 'present' invisibly with his true followers in 1914. He has always had his attention turned towards them. Just where does this idea of 'turning his attention' to the earth in 1914 come from - I can't find a single scripture alluding to it? It must be another analogy.
Come on my good fellow, doesn't it just make a whole lot more sense scripturally and logically to admit that Jesus' coming and arrival as king (and subsequent presence), and the ousting of Satan and the demons, and the beginning of the ride of the four horseman, are all clearly future events that begin at the outbreak of the great tribulation? All this 1914 stuff is just such a contradictory and confusing mess really.
"Millions now living will never die."
Since "no falsehood" comes from their mouths, and they are "without blemish", that eliminates any JW from being a part of the 144,000. Case closed!
And aside from that, the qualifier for being part of the 144,000 is to have your head cut off for Jesus, not for running around with a bookbag for a few decades proclaiming the evil OT (Jewish Fables) God as the Supreme Being...
Eggnog, what's it like trying to bail out of the Titanic with a shot glass?
I interrupt this conversation with the official printed Watchtower comment:
What has Jesus been doing in heaven since his return there? He has tremendous authority. (Matthew 28:18) Indeed, Jehovah appointed him to rule over the Christian congregation, an assignment that he has carried out in a loving and just way. (Colossians 1:13) As foretold, Jesus has provided responsible men to care for the needs of his flock. (Ephesians 4:8) For example, he chose Paul to be “an apostle to the nations,” sending him to spread the good news far and wide. (Romans 11:13; 1 Timothy 2:7) Near the end of the first century, Jesus directed messages of commendation, counsel, and correction to seven congregations in the Roman province of Asia. (Revelation, chapters 2-3) Do you recognize Jesus as Head of the Christian congregation? (Ephesians 5:23) In order to continue following him, you will want to promote an obedient, cooperative spirit in your local congregation.
8 Jesus was granted still more authority in 1914. In that year he was appointed as King of Jehovah’s Messianic Kingdom. When Jesus’ rule began, “war broke out in heaven.” The result? Satan and his demons were hurled to the earth, triggering an era of woe. The rampant wars, crime, terror, disease, earthquakes, and famines that have afflicted modern man remind us that Jesus is ruling in heaven right now. Satan is still “the ruler of this world” for “a short period of time.” (Revelation 12:7-12; John 12:31; Matthew 24:3-7; Luke 21:11) However, Jesus is giving people worldwide the opportunity to accept His rulership.
*** cf chap. 18 pp. 190-191 par. 22 “Continue Following Me” *** 22 Think, too, of what Jehovah wants to do for you in the future by means of his Messianic King. Soon that King will wage righteous warfare against Satan’s wicked system of things. Jesus’ victory is sure! (Revelation 19:11-15) Afterward, Christ will begin his Thousand Year Reign over the earth. His heavenly government will dispense the benefits of the ransom to every faithful human, raising such ones to perfection. Imagine yourself vibrant in health, ever young and strong, happily working with a united human family to turn this earth into a paradise! At the end of that Millennium, Jesus will hand the rulership back to his Father. (1 Corinthians 15:24) If you continue loyally following Christ, you will be granted a blessing so wonderful that it is hard even to imagine—“the glorious freedom of the children of God”! (Romans 8:21) Yes, we will have all the blessings that Adam and Eve had and lost. Earthly sons and daughters of Jehovah, we will be forever free of the stain of Adam’s sin. Truly, “death will be no more.”—Revelation 21:4.
Is egg nog short for egghead?
The Jews believed they had a binding deal with Jehovah to be a special people if they obeyed the ritual covenant of Moses.
They demanded an earthly King and sullenly Jehovah capitulated to their rebuff of invisible leadership by giving them a human king.
The king was selected by anointing.
Eventually, the Jews were swallowed up by larger, more powerful and advanced societies which impacted their language, stories, customs and
society.( Babylon and Greece.)
While the Jews fractured into sects, opinions and political factions, an empire grew up around them. (Rome.)
A hope arose among the Jews for Soverignty through kingship over Gentile domination through a special super-messianic deliverer.
Candidates and claimants came and went. Simultaneously, Zealot strategies against the Romans were brewing. (Sicarii) Murder and assassination followed.
Jesus arrives and stirs up controversy by pacifist teaching, reinterpretation of Law and a call to social reform. His enemies (those who want a political coup)
sell him out as a rival to Caesar. The Jews kangaroo-court Jesus and turn him over to the Romans for capital punishment as one who would damage the Sovereignty of Caesar. (lese majeste).
Rome destroys the center of all Jewish ritual connection to Mosaic observance. The temple is obliterated.
Judaism shrinks into covert survivalist sects and disperses throughout the empire.
Messianic Jews embrace the central leadership of an interpreted MESSIAH, Jesus, who must be spiritualized, deified and deconstructed as a warrior king.
Stories, legends, miracle tales spread like wildfire. Desperate for any identity which restores their former hope, Jews embrace the idea of King/Priest Jesus who will miraculous return SOON. Gentiles, under the teachings and re-definitions of Paul discover a Demi-god in Jesus.
Gnostic deconstructions which identify Jewish traditions as serving a monster-god, Jehovah seek to replace the Old Testament deity with JESUS.
All splinter groups compete for dominance. A decades long competition for CONTROLLING THE DEFINITION of who and what JESUS was breaks out.
Roman Emperor Constantine seeks unity among a grassroots constituency and brings Jewish Messianic folowers of Jesus and Gentile demi-god believers together to hammer out solidarity.
in 325 c.e. the authority of Rome stamps ORTHODOXY on a set of statements and proceeds to eliminate competing ideas.
A universal (Catholic) church arises with strong central authority over all the world.
This Catholic body declares itself INFALLIBLE on matters of faith and morals.
True faith consists of attending Mass, Confessing sins and receiving absolution and tithing.
BIBLE READING IS NOT REQUIRED.
Corruption (both internecine and Political) eats away at public confidence in Catholic dominion.
Martin Luther arises and confronts the Church with its corruption.
PROTESTANTISM arises.
THE BIBLE takes the place of Church inerrancy.
Wars commence between Catholic and Protestant interpretations of GOD'S WILL.
The world is divided.
Protestantism begins to divide into sects immediately.
Using scripture alone (Sola Scriptura) cherry picking Proof Texts becomes a veritible cottage industry among charismatic Denomination Theologians.
Oppression of religious minorities causes European splinter groups to seek solace in the NEW WORLD (America).
Wanting to avoid the domination of a CHURCH-STATE power squeeze, the Founding Fathers separate Church and State.
A festering hotbed of opinions, interpretations, ideologies and theologies compete for the approval of colonists as America grows into a vast
heartland of religious idealism.
The idea develops that Christian purity can build a shining City on a Hill that will serve as a model for all nations of the Earth to emulate and admire.
World Wide conversion to Christianity will bring about the Second Coming of Christ to restore unity and punish sinners.
Immediately, Second Advent preaching becomes fashionable.
William Miller, a self-taught Baptist lay preacher, convinces many fellow christians JESUS WILL RETURN SOON.
USING PROOF TEXTS and the principle of SOLA SCRIPTURA the date of 1844 is selected.
Many prepare for the Advent.
A GREAT DISAPPOINTMENT FOLLOWS.
Several secondary proof-texts and interpretations follow with equal DISAPPOINTMENT.
Civil War destroys the ideal among christians.
A movement of Apocalypticism poisons Christianity and divides it further spreading across the globe.
Out of the Adventist theology arise many lay preachers with various Proof-Text teachings that bible reading christians find persuasive.
Among these, Charles Taze Russell, begins his teaching with a small fortune behind his publishing company.
Russell builds a large readership through exotic methods and eclectic combinations of charts, pyramidology and proof-texting and builds
on the same William Miller inspired Apocalypticism. Russell predicts many things including the End of Government and Religion in 1914.
World War I breaks out.
Russell's predictions FAIL UTTERLY.
Russell seeks to RE-interpret and spin the failure into complete SUCCESS by reprinting his predictions with CHANGED TEXT.
He dies and a series of leaders in the Presidency of the Watchtower Publishing corporation carry on.
Russell's core teachings serve as a launching pad for RE-interpretation and rejection by Judge Rutherford.
Russellism becomes JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES; a novel, contrarian, upstart group whose foundation teaching is an INVISIBLE RETURN OF JESUS in 1914.
As a great many claims develop and are proved false over and again, the Watchtower Society Proof-Text ministry finally settles into a pattern
of door to door distribution of CURRENT TEACHING (called Food at the Proper time of Meat in Due Season.)
Current teaching is replaced by NEW LIGHT (a 7th Day Adventist terminology under Ellen White.)
The core belief centers on JESUS RETURNED INVISIBLY in 1914 to rule in the midst of his enemies.
The door to door distribution of Watchtowers and books is supposed to EDUCATE sheeplike persons to attend the Kingdom Hall and become
door to door distributors as well (after baptism.)
All the while, ARMAGEDDON has replaced the 2nd Coming of Jesus as the IMMINENT EVENT to prepare for.
As the years roll by and the doomsday clock ticked inexorably, Jehovah's Witnesses replayed the same mantra of Armageddon preparation without
anything ever happening.
The world events were identified over and over and over as PROVING the Time of the End was NOW!
But, it never was.
Other denominations in Christendom have taken up the ballyhoo for ARMAGEDDON under writers such as Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye.
Christianity is seized in an obsession with ARMAGEDDON on the one hand and the 2nd Coming of Jesus on the other.
Nothing ever happens. Only warnings.
And so on.
Just as the Jews sought status in a threatening world and claimed SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP with Jehovah, so too, Christians today variously
seek special status as the TRUE religion.
Jehovah's Witnesses proof text scripture and point to world events again and again without success.
1975 was the last debacle to falsify their claims of special status with Jehovah as a true channel of communication.
Various members wake up and discover the pattern throughout history and leave.
But, others continue to maintain the illusion that GOD SPEAKS THROUGH THEM and the only TRUTH is their private interpretation.
And we here on JWN particpate in what is nothing more than a parlour game of WHOSE PROOF TEXTS are superior.
It all comes down to one FALSE PREMISE. The Bible.
Martin Luther told us the Bible is inerrant and all we need to interpret scripture for Truth.
The Church (Catholic) claimed magesterium (tradition, the Pople, etc.)
The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses has COMBINED THOSE TWO into an anointed body (magesterium) who alone can represent Jehovah
to all mankind who will listen.
Why do we continue to argue what is certainly a false premise?
