Now the Tea Party dominated Republicans want to enslave children! Yet they have the audacity to say that violent insurrection is needed against those who oppose them!!!

by Terra Incognita 141 Replies latest members politics

  • NeckBeard
    NeckBeard

    Let's say that EVERYONE were to wake up tomorrow morning and be magically given the same intelligence, motivation, stamina and knowledge. They would all strive to do whatever you think they have to do to rise from their current position. Who would be the janitors, low wage supermarket/retail workers, make believe security guards, etc.?

    That is a useless hypothetical. In the REAL WORLD, everyone is different, and even if everyone had the same intelligence, motivation, stamina and knowledge, different people have different preferences, and different preferences are valued by the rest of the people differently. So even in your hypothetical, there would be different outcomes. Also, there is an element of chance in every life, and not all lives get the same chances. That is how the world is.

  • NeckBeard
    NeckBeard

    It's obvious that the majority of such equally qualified people would not be able improve their position for the simple reason that there are only a limited number of positions available.

    Another falsehood. You view things as a zero sum game. That is not how the world works. A more productive group of people means a bigger economic pie. A bigger overall pie means more slices for everyone, regardless of their relative position on the pyramid. That improves everyone's absolute position. The bottom 20% today is wealthier than the top 20% of 50 years ago, in absolute terms. The pie is bigger.

  • Terra Incognita
    Terra Incognita

    NeckBeard: "The bottom 20% today is wealthier than the top 20% of 50 years ago, in absolute terms."

    Oh my non-existent deity!!! Please tell that to those who live in the ghetto and the upper levels of the poor!!! That doesn't even include the fringes of the lower middle class, who start at a higher percentile mark.

    So compare the destitute and working poor to those who in 1960 (You know, "50 years ago") where in the top 20%.

    NeckBeard, you're giving me a hernia laughing so hard!!!

  • NeckBeard
    NeckBeard

    If the "working poor" of today's US has a heartattack or cancer, he/she is more likely to survive it than a tycoon of 1960. The same is true for many other diseases. The working poor have a life expectancy at least 10 years longer now than in 1960. In fact, a person in the lower quintile today can expect to live longer than a wealthy person in 1960.

    Try to put a price tag on one more decade of living. That is life, which is real wealth!

    The "working poor" today can post on JWN and has online access to a far larger library at home than the wealthiest person in 1960.

    That is knowledge and power, which, after the basic needs of food, water, and shelter are met, is real wealth!

    The "working poor" of 1960 couldn't even afford a TV set or telephone. Now he has an HD flatscreen and a cellphone-something not even available to the rich. In 1960, he had no car. Today, he likely has a car superior to the best car available to a rich person in 1960.

    In past economic downturns, starvation was a real problem for poor people. Today, the abundance is so great, the biggest problem is obesity--too much food!

    We are so wealthy today, we actually can afford to waste some resources on those that refuse to participate and provide for themselves because of vice and sloth. In times past, this was not an option! To do so would literally starve the productive.

    The bottom quintile today has access to more and more varied food, better medicine, superior means of transportation and communication, and so on. In every economically measurable way, they are wealthier. In many ways, they are wealthier than even the wealthy of 1960.

    So much for the failure of capitalism!

    Our high, high standard of living

    In the 1950s and 1960s, a working man could support a family at a middle-class standard of living with just one income. It might surprise you to learn that one person working full-time, even at minimum wage, can still support a family of four at that standard of living. Nowadays we call that "living in poverty."

    According to John E Schwarz in Illusions of Opportunity :

    In the early 1950s, fully two fifths of American households had no automobile, about a third did not have a private telephone or a television, and the homes of about a third of all Americans were dilapidated or were without running water or a private toilet and bath. Only a small minority of families enjoyed such basics as a mixer or had a hot-water heater.

    Those dilapidated shacks without hot water improved over the years, but as late as 1970 the median single-family home was still less than 1400 square feet (versus over 2200 now).

    I have a personal recollection of the 1960s and 1970s (I graduated from high school in 1977). My dad was a college professor and probably made a pretty good income, but we never had a standard of living as high as lots of "poor" folks seem to have now: We never had air conditioning. We didn't get a second car until I was in high school. We didn't get a color TV until I'd gone away to college. We never took vacations overseas. Eating out was for special occasions.

    The key fact about the period was not the high standard of living, but that it was a risingstandard of living, which made the period one of considerable optimism. I'm not advocating that anyone live at a 1950s (or even 1960s) standard of living, but I'd be pleased if people would quit romanticizing those days as a golden age of prosperity.

  • NeckBeard
    NeckBeard

    Villabolo, this article bears directly on your already disproven argument.

    http://tech.mit.edu/V131/N7/yost.html

    Opinion: The inequality illusion Scratch the surface to find that income disparity isn’t all it’s hyped up to be February 22, 2011

    Benjamin Disraeli is once said to have remarked that there are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. As a man who views the world through empiricist lenses, I’ve never been fond of the saying (I prefer to think of the three categories as lies, damned lies, and personal anecdotes), but there is some truth to the maxim. Statistics, arranged with malice aforethought, can lead their viewers to make facile, incorrect inferences.

    Such is the state of our national discussion on household income inequality. We’re told that we’re witnessing a steady deterioration in the fairness of how we divide of our economic pie. As proof, we are offered the following: In 1967 (the year that the Census Bureau began collecting such information), the lowest quintile of households had 4 percent of the nation’s income, and their fellow quintiles had 10.8 percent, 17.3 percent, 24.2 percent, and 43.6 percent, while the very top five percent had 17.2 percent. By 2009, the numbers had changed; the bottom quintile earned 3.4 percent, the other quintiles earned 8.6 percent, 14.6 percent, 23.2 percent, and 50.3 percent, with the top five percent taking home 21.7 percent of the national income.

    Many see this as a critical problem, and recommend a variety of radical solutions to combat it. We’re told that we need to strengthen unions, set command and control wage floors and ceilings that mandate minimum and maximum wages, wipe out the savings of the wealthy through capital gains taxes or other measures, and so on, to prevent what must be theft from the poor by the rich.

    There are a large number of problems with this policy prescription, the foremost of which is that America does not have an inequality problem.

    Let’s begin with the obvious: the inequality of well-being has drastically fallen since 1967. Bill Gates may have a million times the income of the average man, but he cannot eat a million meals. Despite the enlarged access to medical care that his income enables, his life expectancy is not much higher than his fellow American — indeed, demographically, it is poor whites who are at the top of the life expectancy charts (second only to Asians). Technology and economic growth have brought most significant technologies within buying reach of the masses; the real mean income of the bottom quintile may have only increased by 28.6 percent to the top quintile’s 70.7 over the past 42 years, but the utility that the bottom quintile got from each marginal dollar was much higher. And at issue is not just the fact that rising income has pushed us all further along the curve of diminishing marginal returns, but the inequality of consumption is also much less than the inequality of income — with increasing wealth comes an increasing tendency to give away (either to offspring, charity, or the government) a higher fraction of earned income.

    Not only that, but the rich have also faced much higher inflation relative to the poor. Between Wal-Mart and globalization of production, low-end consumer goods have become cheaper at a much faster rate than high-end consumer goods. Adjusted for purchasing power, the growth disparity in consumption between the classes becomes miniscule.

    Moreover, much of the growth in inequality can be explained by demographic factors. Income inequality is usually highest among the older and more highly educated, for the simple reason that by increasing the earning potential of an individual (either by giving them a longer period in which to earn or better tools to earn with), the variation in outcomes increases as well. By some economic analyses, a large majority of the observed income inequality is explained by simple demographic effects, the product of an aging (and slightly more educated) population.

    On top of this, the rise in income inequality has been largely matched by a rise in the inequality of hours worked. Higher income individuals are simply working more than their lower-earning peers. Part of this may be demographic as well: With the rise of the single-occupant household, there has been a rise in the so-called “threshold earners,” individuals who work as much as they need to satisfy their consumption needs, and then stop.

    Finally, it is unclear whether there are any undesirable structural causes for the rise in income of those households that are responsible for most of the increase in income inequality, the top 1 percent of earners. We live in a more global, more connected economy. The creation of new intellectual property, whether it is a book, or a movie, or a piece of software, is more valuable than it was in earlier times because the number of people who can enjoy it has increased. Rashard Lewis, a 31-year old small forward for the Washington Wizards, has a salary of $19 million per year, more than three times (adjusted for inflation) than what basketball great Michael Jordan made at the same age. Is Rashard Lewis a better player, or has the productivity of basketball as an entertainment industry increased due to network effects? Are financial executives earning their extra monies by devoting a greater portion of their day to rent seeking, or are their rising incomes the result of making decisions that price the activity of a larger absolute market? Is J.K. Rowling a better of an author than Charles Dickens, or is she merely the recipient of a windfall that the information economy has provided? And should we cap the amount of money that the Mrs. Rowlings of the world earn through their creations even when, by any calculation, the value of those creations are higher today than they were in the past?

    Inequality alarmists propose smashing the incentives structure that allows the free market to operate, through monopolization of the labor supply, or taxes that grossly violate the benefits-received principle, or command and control schemes on individual income. They are using statistics whose real story — a tale of demographic and technological trends — is hidden at first glance, and using the obvious (but wrong) inference from those statistics to justify a policy of income redistribution and market meddling. They are motivated not out of concern with the statistics themselves, but by their ideological preferences and partisan allegiances.

    Don’t buy the inequality hype; the American system remains a fair one, and is deserving of continuation.

  • NeckBeard
    NeckBeard

    Wrong thread

  • darthfader
    darthfader

    LOL @ NeckBeard, still and interesting article

  • Terra Incognita
    Terra Incognita

    NeckBeard:

    "If the "working poor" of today's US has a heartattack or cancer, he/she is more likely to survive it than a tycoon of 1960. The same is true for many other diseases."

    NeckBeard needs a reminder of what he exactly said:

    NeckBeard: "The bottom 20% today is wealthier than the top 20% of 50 years ago, in absolute terms."

    Ah, let's see. You said "ABSOLUTE TERMS". As for having advanced medicine, how many of the lower 20% income category have the insurance to pay for it?

    I will hand it to you NeckBeard, if you're a gangbanger you have somewhat of a higher chance of surviving a gunshot wound than someone in 1960. Not by that much, but doctors who work in public Socialist hospitals have had a lot of practice in those lower 20 percentile income neighborhoods.

    Now I've seen videos of a woman, cold dead, at the waiting room of a lower 20 percentile income hospital while people walk around her. Maybe she should have been shot? It would have gotten her immediate attention.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybOJUujKxPg&feature=related

    Get a reality! Some people just live in an alternative universe.

  • sammielee24
    sammielee24

    If you understood half the time what you criticize you'd be more qualified to make an informed contribution to the conversations you provoke

    -------

    Yeah Terry.

    I get it.

    You keep inferring that I'm some kind of uneducated moron.

    That's okay.

    If it makes you sleep better at night - keep pounding. Low self esteem often lends itself to bully behavior and unneccesary belittling.....sammies

  • Berengaria
    Berengaria

    Not only that, but the rich have also faced much higher inflation relative to the poor. Between Wal-Mart and globalization of production, low-end consumer goods have become cheaper at a much faster rate than high-end consumer goods. Adjusted for purchasing power, the growth disparity in consumption between the classes becomes miniscule.

    Ahhhh now I get it! It's comedy.

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