@Yknot-very well put
Introducing Myself
by StandFirm 151 Replies latest jw friends
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StandFirm
I asked:
What ONE subject would you most want to debate with a JW defender?
The votes so far are:
Deity of Christ: 1
False Prophecy Allegations: 1
Jesus as Mediator: 1
God Having an Organization: 1
So far that's a 4 way tie! Come on, all, tell me really:
What ONE subject would you most want to debate or see debated with a JW defender?
Replies:
From page 5:
OUTLAW: I quoted the WTS' own statements as proof, both from the 1950s and from recent years. That you choose to ignore the obvious is your own fault.
Retrovirus: If you look back over this thread or on my blog (link on post 1) you should see plenty of examples.
Black Sheep: No, the same idea is expressed in 2001. Also, the Jonadabs were understood to also be JWs well before the 1950s.
Here the quotes are again:
*** w01 1/15 p. 31 A Special Announcement ***
"Concerning the Pennsylvania corporation, Brother Barr added: “Ever since its incorporation in 1884, the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania has played an important role in our modern-day history. Still, it is merely a legal instrument available for use by ‘the faithful and discreet slave’ when it is necessary.”"
*** w53 4/1 p. 214 par. 21 Doing the Work Approved by God ***
there is only one organization that is pursuing the above-outlined course, namely, Jehovah’s witnesses. Inseparably associated with this widely known organization is its legal servant and governing agency, the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society. Only Jehovah’s witnesses and their associates are bearing the fruits of the Kingdom by public proclamation. (Heb. 13:15) They alone are heralding forth the good news that God’s kingdom under Christ is man’s only hope.
From page 6:
Hobo Ken: That's pretty detailed for an introductory thread! I agree with the 1st statement, the 2nd statement I can't agree with. We do not teach that. I would say instead "Jehovah's Witnesses have been chosen as Jehovah's representatives."
bohm: I'll comment over on that thread then.
Honesty: The WTS comments on those verses elsewhere:
*** w65 3/1 p. 151 Basis for Reliance on Prophecy ***
The Bible itself establishes the rules for testing a prophecy, at Deuteronomy 18:20-22 and 13:1-3: (1) It must be spoken in Jehovah’s name and at his command; (2) it must come to pass; (3) it must be in harmony with God’s commandments and thus promote right worship.
ProdigalSon: I've seen shows like that. Their attempts to explain the Bible according to their ideas are little better than anyone elses.
yknot: I may disagree with those who gave me the elders' manual but if they claim the manual supports their distortions of the elders then I will use it to prove them wrong, simple as that.
You wrote: "HH interupst you again).... well Mr.SF I believe in the good news, gospel, or truth of the kingdom message.....can you tell me about what you JWs believe of the kingdom message ?"
Alright, I'll say:
"Okay, well our belief in the Kingdom is based on how the Bible desribes it here at Daniel 2:35, 44. At the end of verse 35 it says, "And as for the stone that struck the image, it became a large mountain and filled the whole earth." And verse 44 describes the symbolic rock: "And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite". May I read you one more scripture?" [HH answers: "Sure."] "Okay. Isaiah 9:6 says, "For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule [or, as many Bible translations say, the government] will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace." So we can see from this that God's Kingdom is an actual government with Jesus Christ as ruler which will someday govern the whole earth. This magazine [shows Watchtower] shows from your own copy of the Bible how we know that God's Kingdom will soon take over the affairs of this earth." [HH says, "Okay, I'd like to read it."] Then I set up a return visit.
After all that, they should have given me the demo on the Service Meeting this week.
yknot writes: "the Arian belief is a strong one that not many will part with it even if they become Ex-jws"
Could that be because our belief is much better rooted in the Scriptures?
yknot writes: "No one ever told a JW anything.....JWs have an automatic dismissal response to such approaches."
Who doesn't?
Farkel writes: "Care to explain those "hardest tests" you mentioned?"
Lots and lots of debates with opposers both intelligent and idiotic. -
Mary
Hmmm.....a JW apologetic who does cut-and-pastes, posts on Topix, claims to be a loyal Witness, yet deliberately joins an 'apostate' site that is strictly forbidden by the religion............why am I getting de ja vu???
....off ta bed...........
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yknot
Standfirm......
You are really doing well here (esp considering the response you are being swamped with!)
I am enjoying your wit too!
Okay back to 'our kingdom message'........nope that aint it.... but it was an excellent presentation, authoritive, clear, well put together...you would be fun to work with in FS!!
So at this point you need to ask yourself seriously.......what does it mean that you a dedicated (and far less conscious) JW can't articulate our 'truth, gospel or good news of the kingdom'? (and really it is a simple message that can be explained in a single sentence)
At this moment in time , right now you can't tell me or anyone else what our kingdom message is according to the WTS.
Shouldnt this be as common knowledge to you?
Why isn't it common knowledge to you?
Do you want to keep applying yourself in search for the answer (again it is on the CD), take a break and consult with more mature bro/sis in your congregation over the weekend or concede to a fully conscious class Sister who you really have little liking or respect?
Oh on the subject of "Godrulz" .......it is wise to discern whether a debate is worthy versus just shutting a person down because their whole premise is their way is the only way despite being shown otherwise.....debating arius/athanasius would be fruitless with him at this point....a season for all things.....
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lesabre
this thread is waaay to long for me to read.....
but.....
standfirm.....
prove to me that jesus is the messiah.
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sizemik
I'd like to debate whether or not dangerous and destructive religious cults should be outlawed
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OUTLAW
OUTLAW: I quoted the WTS' own statements as proof, both from the 1950s and from recent years. That you choose to ignore the obvious is your own fault.
Stand Firm..
Your inability to understand Cult language subtleties is glaringly obvious..
You have no idea why that 1953 quote isn`t talking about the Jehovah`s Witness Religion..LOL!!..
That coupled with your advise to Tuesday,to give his money to a charity,tell me your not a JW..
If you find a real JW..Show them that 50`s quote..And..
Ask them why it`s not a Quote about the JW Religion,but a group within the religion..
Even that group follows WBT$ Rules..
Your a JW Pretender and your not very good at it..
.........................;-)...OUTLAW
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ProdigalSon
ProdigalSon: I've seen shows like that. Their attempts to explain the Bible according to their ideas are little better than anyone elses.
No, you haven't, because the documentary "The Bible's Buried Secrets" is based on newly discovered archaeological evidence. What has archaeological evidence got to do with "ideas"?
Just like the alleged global deluge, the earth's geological testimony means nothing to you. There was never any "Exodus", or conquering of the Promised Land by "Joshua". The evidence clearly indicates that the area was settled PEACEFULLY over a long period of time by the Canaanites. It was the Canaanites who became "Israelites". It was a small group of Canaanites who escaped slavery in Egypt, and there were never any plagues. These are IDEAS? The only IDEAS here are that the Bible is the Word of God, but the hard evidence indicates otherwise.
Good grief. The Bible suggests the earth is shaped like a pizza and CLEARLY teaches that the earth is stationary while the entire universe rotates around it every 24 hours. Why don't you believe THAT?
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Simon
Simon: The WTS is a corporation that prints books and does other business on behalf of God's organization. I believe that Jehovah's Witnesses are the truth because their doctrines align far more closely with the Bible than do those of any other religion, and they practice what they preach far more than any other religion.
What organisation? The WTS is an organisation at least ... as far as I know there is no 'organisation' of Jehovahs Witnesses other than the WTS - in fact, they claim sole rights to the obedience of the followers and, as you say they do business on behalf of God's organization (without telling us what that organization is) then they must have that right - by your reasoning. If a JW decides they want to follow the bible instead of the WTS teching that it contradicts then how come the WTS gets to expel them? Isn't the tail wagging the dog by your definition or is there, in fact, NO dog at all - just the steaming pile of shite one has left behind.
If they were God's organization wouldn't their doctrines align completely 100% with the Bible and not just 'more closely'? Which bible are you talking about? Do they get to decide which ones they chose to align with and which ones not? Tell us which ones they are not following right now will you?
Again, what would prove to you that the WTS was *not* gods organization on earth or was *not* being controlled or used by God's organization? Again, what really differentiates them from other religions?