An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

by AK - Jeff 1495 Replies latest jw experiences

• 

  AGuest

  in the world we live in, why in the hell would anyone worship that God?

  I can't answer for anyone but myself, Jer, but would say that I could do it for the same reason that I could continue to love my parents if, because of the CHOICES of my sibling, HAD to proceed with, shall we say "tough love." Now, before you start ripping your garments and tossing ashes, let me give you an example, one that many HERE can relate to: active JWs who shun their own flesh.

  No, I am not saying that He does that... that such a thing is even okay. I am referring to those who ARE so shunned. Those who have been cut off BY THEIR OWN FLESH... including restricted from having a relationship with such ones' children... by such active members. Grandparents, for example. Because of following MAN... these active individuals CHOOSE to cut themselves... AND their children... off from members of their family. That is exactly what mankind has done with the Most Holy One of Israel: He has not hidden Himself from us - it is we who cut ourselves... and our children... off from HIM. Because we follow man. And both are OUR choices (to follow man AND cut ourselves and our children off)... not His.

  For someone like me, however, I can STILL love that cut off one... even if those who cut Him off... or cut themselves off from HIM... don't.

  Taking that back to the "tough love" scenario, if I had a sibling who CHOSE to involve themselves in... ummmm... shall we say, unsavory, conduct... who my parents TRIED to help but who kept REJECTING that help... even keeping their children away and rejecting any help offered THEM... then I would have to side with my parents. Yes, I would "be there" for that sibling, if they needed something from ME, of course I would. And I would still ask my parents to forgive them... and love them.

  But I would absolutely understand it if my parents said to me, "SA, we've done all we could. Your [brother] doesn't WANT us in his lives... or the lives of his family. We love him and so we will respect HIS choice and wishes. Yes, it hurts... terribly... but it is what HE wants. Of course, we're here if he ever wants to COME HOME... but we're not going out looking for HIM anymore. Because he doesn't want us to find him. He wants us to leave him alone... and so, that's what we're doing."

  Would I love my parents LESS for making this decision? Absolutely not. They know my "brother" like I know my "brother." Maybe even better. Even if not, they know what he wants... and doesn't want... from THEM. I, for my part... can love them both. And it is in this way that I can worship the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... in spite of the world we live in: because much of it, MOST of it... is my "brother's" choice, NOT my Father's.

  For anything that I even thought WAS my Father's fault... I would do as Moses, Abraham, and others did: humbly, lovingly, and mildly call Him on it (as I would do with my "brother"). Thus far, however, I've found nothing that prompts ME to do that.

  A slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  Qcmbr

  I love watching Xians making it up as they go. As I've said before, nothing like religion to make people waffle to avoid the hard facts.

  Any god suggested as worthy of worship would earn that worship either through fear or through love. I would suggest that the evidence presented by the misery of the human condition points to a philosophy of a god who desires to be feared. The bible is full of stories of god meddling ( he killed everyone in a flood because he was upset with his minions ) so he's not , apparently , above getting involved ( so forget any free will childishness ) and when he does get involved his modus operandi is death and destruction - he's even promised lots more when he bothers to return.

  Personally I prefer the god who exist merely in storybooks and in the imaginations of the few since then he's not bothering us while we get on with feeding his kids, cleaning up after his natural disasters, technologically advancing despite the silly stories of his believers, socially tolerating despite the immoral teachings of his books and so forth.

  Away with the evil impotent, absent , invisible sky daddy.
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  Without even picking that apart, AGuest answers for "Why LOVE that one?"

  My question was "why ... worship..?"

  If you want to love a parent for bringing you into the world, but cannot respect them for being able to prevent disaster upon you or for watching you starve, okay. I could not worship a god I could not respect.

  And this is in line with the original post, just a different take.
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  ...and infants with birth defects and children victims of disaster did not abandon God as the sibling in the example abandoned their parents or their values.
• 

  tec

  I hear you Shelby.

  Many of the same people shouting out in complaint to God would be among the first to cry foul if His solution was an infringment upon their 'rights' and 'free will' - especially if that meant taking away their children so those children would no longer be taught their parents' lies.

  Away with the evil impotent, absent , invisible sky daddy.

  There is no such being to be away with.

  Peace,

  Tammy
• 

  ShadesofGrey

  A personal reply: The order of things in my conversion happened so that I received God's Spirit. At that point I felt the Love, Joy, and Peace that was promised and my life drastically improved, and I was a better more loving person to everyone around me, and this continues to increase. I feel his presence in my heart and it is the best thing I have ever experienced. I have examples of his perfect justice and I trust that he can control space, time and memories. So I will continue to worship and love him.

  A Child of God,

  SOG
• 

  Qcmbr

  Sorry Tec - as much as you like to find your 'and with a single bound she was free' answers to wriggle out of hard questions free will is not a player in this game. Your god is responsible for tsunamis, earthquakes and disease - even you can't pin those on people not 'believing'. God also really hates the illiterate, the feeble, the young, old and infirm since his disasters always get them first.

  All the gods of all the believers have done less of practical use than any famous scientist. I would choose the benefits to mankind of Louis Pasteur over all the fluffy 'help' the invisible gods do.

  No god has given any evidence of caring a fig about any of his creations. He even makes the animals hunt and eat each other in a viscous gladiatorial combat played out in millions of deaths each day. No , if their is a god he's Roman and he's an evil so and so.
• 

  AGuest

  Without even picking that apart, AGuest answers for "Why LOVE that one?" My question was "why ... worship..?"

  What IS worship, Jer? Oh, that's right... you're probably going by the "religious" definition. I am not religious, so...

  If you want to love a parent for bringing you into the world, but cannot respect them for being able to prevent disaster upon you or for watching you starve, okay.

  Well, then, I would say that most of the world cannot respect their parents. Including your own children (if you have them)... because I can't see how YOU can prevent [all] disaster from coming upon them. That you can prevent them from starving is simply due to demographics - had you had them in, say, Darfur... you wouldn't necessarily be so... shall we say, "fortunate".

  I could not worship a god I could not respect.

  I have to smile at this one because MY thought is: who ASKED you to? The Most Holy One of Israel is not ASKING mankind to worship Him. Doing so is for OUR ultimate benefit, not His. He is simply saying that IF you want what He is offering... then, sure, worship Him... by: loving Him, His Son, yourself, your flesh (spouse/children), your brother, your neighbor, strangers... and even your enemies. IF you want it. If you DON'T... then, by all means, feel free to exercise your free will. BUT... don't get mad at HIM when such exercising leaves you wanting. You CHOSE that "want."

  And this is in line with the original post, just a different take.

  Both of which are off the mark... because neither of the commenters know... or even slightly understand... the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies. Because they hold on to what they DO know (rather, think they know) which they received from MAN (who doesn't know, himself)... rather than turning to the One who DOES know: the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... His Son. These instead keep looking to "Moses"... and so have a VEIL upon their hearts (which is why what comes OUT of you ABOUT the Most Holy One does!)... rather than turning to Christ so as to have that veil REMOVED... which removal is what allows the glorious GOOD news... to shine through!

  ...and infants with birth defects and children victims of disaster did not abandon God as the sibling in the example abandoned their parents or their values.

  Nor did the children of active JWs... whose parents won't let THEM see their non-JW parents/grandparents/aunts/uncles/cousins, what have you. For both, it is the parents who make such decisions FOR their children. Funny, I thought you would have gotten that analogy, Jer. Not all that surprised that you didn't, though. I know, I know... you didn't read all that I posted. You really should have, though, before commenting.

  A slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  Qcmbr

  Let's take that thought a step further. As created beings we have to ask why would a 'loving' designer add in the capacity to feel pain and for it to be so unpleasant. Knowing that billions would have to experience death, illness, starvation, fear and mental anguish, why would a loving god make us (and all higher life) so delicately attuned to pain. It's as if he loves it. God also seems to have a thing for painful labour, natural abortion, disability and early infant death if we look at childbirth. The only conclusion that we can arrive at is that we are designed to feel exquisite pain as often as possible and for as long as can be.

  Dang god just loves the pain. He loves just sitting back and doing nothing.
• 

  Qcmbr

  AGuest - condescending gibberish. Ask your battlemage to fix your shoulder next time.