An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

by AK - Jeff 1495 Replies latest jw experiences

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  PSacramento

  That PSac, is the most reasonable and direct answer I've heard, from one with a strong belief in God, on the subject of evil/suffering. Well said.

  Thank you, it was honest from my part and sometimes that's all we got.
• 

  AGuest

  why would a 'loving' designer add in the capacity to feel pain and for it to be so unpleasant.

  Because the vessel we currently occupy can die, dear Q (again, peace to you!). Which it doesn't WANT to do (what does??). Therefore, it "protests" that which precedes death: pain, sickness, etc. The vessel that we started OFF with, however... and will RETURN to... does not die. And so, does not experience pain. Hence, "Death will be no more, neither outcry, mourning... or pain."

  Knowing that billions would have to experience death, illness, starvation, fear and mental anguish, why would a loving god make us (and all higher life) so delicately attuned to pain.

  He DIDN'T make us that way: He gave the body we possess to Adham... who in turn passed it to his children. And so on. He gave Adham that body to prevent him (Adham) from re-entering the spirit realm until such time as "Adham" could be RETURNED to the state he had initially. Why? Because Adham proved he was not READY to exist in the vessel he had previously... but would, instead, use his existence IN such vessel for his own selfish purposes. Even to the detriment of his own flesh (Eve and his children), which he didn't care about.

  It's as if he loves it. God also seems to have a thing for painful labour, natural abortion, disability and early infant death if we look at childbirth.

  So, funny (to me) to have a man comment on the pain of childbirth. It is painful, more for some than for others. Due to c-sectioning, it's sometimes not painful at all. But I am going to say this, even at risk of ticking some off (and I don't care because it is true): it is apparently much more painful for U.S. women... than for any other women on the planet! For some reason, no other women need as much pampering and medication to push out a child as "we" do. Many women give birth without a doctor, let alone a hospital. Let alone numbing drugs. And many of them are back up and out within a few hours, if not a day or two. Not so in the U.S. Why do you think that is, exactly, I mean, given how much more "advanced" we are than, say, Sri Lanka?

  As for natural abortion and early infant death... would not the environment and health of the mother be instrumental? What of the non-natural abortions? Where is your outcry for that?

  The only conclusion that we can arrive at is that we are designed to feel exquisite pain as often as possible and for as long as can be.

  As one who has had two children... one naturally, one not... I would have to agree: the pain WAS exquisite. And I would do it again if I could. That some women do it 5, 6, 10, 19 or more times... should tell you that it's not totally undesirable.

  Dang god just loves the pain. He loves just sitting back and doing nothing.

  There is nothing He SHOULD do... except for those He has covenanted with TO do. Everyone else needs to call on and wait for the actions of their own gods. Which they apparently do.

  Again, peace to you!

  YOUR servant (always), and a slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  Qcmbr

  Elective abortions are the choice of the mother and I suspect do a great deal of good overall (young teens , children who could not be given proper attention, children who would live short painful lives due to disability, marriages / families that would collapse due to infidelity etc.) elective abortions are also done only during the first stage of gestation while god is happy to carry on his abortions all the way up to birth.

  It seems that the abortionist god would disagree with many pro-life Christians.
• 

  Qcmbr

  PSac I can respect your answer. Kudos.
• 

  AGuest

  yes people we're still dying from illness and dismal lives and horrible deaths long before modern technology increased the lifespans of ALL people.

  I think you're mistaken, dear Q (again, peace to you!). It is a FACT that many of these never SAW disease... until the Europeans arrived. Before that, either childbirth, starvation, exposure, poisoning, or wild animals were the cause of death. However, for all of the lives modern technology has saved, you cannot rule out all of the ones lost... via wars, coups, genocides, biological experimentations (either direct or indirect), industrial/vehicular/carrier accidents, pharmaceuticals/tobacco products, etc., ALL contrived, derived, controlled, sold, and the result of... man. Seriously...

  Your comments about rotting food ignore the fact that most food provided by your god he leaves to rot on trees

  What, He has to come down and pick it for us, too??? C'mon, Q... your frustration is making you careless. This comment was just silly.

  and in the ground sometimes just feet away from unknowing, probably praying, starving people.

  I highly doubt it and think you underestimate the disabled (which is perhaps understandable in THIS country, since we have so many programs to help that one doesn't HAVE to go out and pick his/her own fruit). But someone who is TRULY starving, even if lame, will find a way to get to that fruit. And, heck, if the guy passing by who SEES him laying there starving with some fruit just a reach away, doesn't get it FOR him... well, I don't think you can blame MY God for that. I know, I know... you still will, though.

  Ask your battlemage to fix your shoulder next time.

  (Smile) It doesn't work that way, dear one. First, the flesh is of no use at all. So, why expend the energy on me? Second, as dear tec (again, the greatest of love and peace to you!) pointed out, pain has a purpose - I had major surgery, so I should have pain. It is reconciling, though... and soon I will be as good as new (well, new for over 50, wink, wink!). Third, the "gift" of healing is not for believers... but for unbelievers. To give THEM a manifestation so that THEIR faith can be built up. Why? In order to build up the congregation (add to the "temple"). I already have faith, so nothing to build up. No point.

  Now, if YOU have a problem dealing with pain... then I would say to YOU to feel free to go to my Lord and ask him for a portion of God's holy spirit to ease YOUR pain. Perhaps you might be granted some... because the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, does show mercy to whomever HE wishes to show it. Even someone lacking faith. So...

  Again, peace to you!

  YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  TheUbermensch

  The fact that one can acknowledge that he doesn't know why his extremely loving, peace giving deity allows evil just points more towards lunacy. Why worship him? It's just pure stubborness.

  To give an example that a very famous scientist/evolutionist put forth... how is it acceptable that there are billions of people on the Earth and those billions of people are all in thousands of different sects of hundreds of different religions? How has that become acceptable to our societies? Imagine if you take every region where there is a majority that practices one religion and substitute it with individual groups of scientists in certain regions that have different theories on why the dinosaurs died. Imagine that everyone in the Middle East believed there was an ice age that we don't know about, and in Eastern Europe people believe that they still exist, and so on. It's absolutely ridiculous, that would never happen, it would never be acceptable in the scientific world. And yet, in the world we find it so acceptable that people believe different religions all over the world. Not only that but your religion is either based on where you were geographically born or what your parents believe. All or most of you are ex Jehovah's Witnesses. A cult that indoctrinates children at a young age, puts forth mounds of lies but is believed by many. You find out how fake the religion is and then go on to ANOTHER religion that indoctrinates children, puts forth lies, etc. It's no better, and yet you find yourselves to be so self righteous in your beliefs that you ignore plausible, valid, logical arguments that completely disprove the existence of your deity, that you create excuses, or just flat out admit that you don't know why he does certain things. It's horrible, and depressing that your rational mind is so clouded by your religious mind that you completely ignore or just deny it.

  Children are indoctrinated into religions around the world on a daily basis. This is the only way that religion continues. Because of the sponge that our mind is when we are young we are inbred with an instinct to completely deny anything that goes against what we believe.

  Psac, you admitted that you have no idea why God permits evil to occur, and you find that acceptable? Scientists admit that they don't know for sure how the universe came to being, but they actually can work on finding the truth. Your knowledge will never be filled, you will never know the answer to why God permits evil. Never. And yet you continue to believe in something that can never give you all the answers. I just don't understand it.
• 

  Qcmbr

  AGuest - google will help you here. Since you decided to focus upon the New World and the evolutionary proof that is disease resistance you maybe should look up the 'Columbian exchange' and see why Old world diseases caused such havoc and how New world diseases were passed back as well. God of course planned it all since he is all knowing and was happy to sit back and watch as the indigenous people of the Americas were devastated by diseases which killed them ( up to 90% ) by some estimates. God really is a piece of work.
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  Qcmbr

  PS sorry about the shoulder. I never realised one had to actually disbelieve god to actually get some physical relief from ailments he cursed us with.
• 

  TheUbermensch

  I think you're mistaken, dear Q (again, peace to you!). It is a FACT that many of these never SAW disease... until the Europeans arrived. Before that, either childbirth, starvation, exposure, poisoning, or wild animals were the cause of death. However, for all of the lives modern technology has saved, you cannot rule out all of the ones lost... via wars, coups, genocides, biological experimentations (either direct or indirect), industrial/vehicular/carrier accidents, pharmaceuticals/tobacco products, etc., ALL contrived, derived, controlled, sold, and the result of... man. Seriously...

  Yes, the biggest killers of all... wars, coups, and genocides. Wars caused by religion, coups by certain militant religious groups, and genocides of entire religions by other religions. These types of war, and these types of aggression are the ones that kill the most. Read the Old Testament, and find all the genocides, war, and coups that God instructed his people to act out.
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  TheUbermensch

  Totally meant to quote that but I failed miserably. aha.