An Old Argument.... does it hold water? (page 68)

unshackled

It's just going round and round and round in circles. In fact it's making me dizzy.

Yep. The problem with the thread is that a non-believer needs proof and evidence beyond the believer simply saying "I just know" or "I know because an invisible being told me it is so". Stating that is no different than saying "I'm right because I say I'm right". In the same sense, a believer will not accept a non-believer's argument of "you're God doesn't exist because I can't reconcile it with evil/suffering". Round and round.

The fact is a believer cannot present evidence that will convince a non-believer to believe. That is why I think the most honest and direct answer was what Psac wrote waaaaay back on page 9:

The honest truth is that I DO NOT KNOW any posible answer as to why God permits evil and suffering that would convince a non-believer. I don't know if there IS one. I think it is valid to question and to ask why and it is valid to search for the answer, wherever it may lead us.

We're just banging our heads against the wall....so who wants to go for a beer?

tec

You buying?

undercover

Why are you soo concerned as to whether any ''logic or reasoning'' is going to get through. I do not spend my time trying to convert you atheists. I don't two hoots what you believe.

I was agreeing with you. This thread is a train wreck. The theists are gonna believe what they want. There's no point in trying to change that.

I don't care if they want to believe in a old man in the sky. Or a pink unicorn or a pasta monster. No skin off my nose.

I'm not concerned whether logic gets through or not. You haven't seen me arguing with them on this thread. I'm just making an observation. One that seems to have touched a nerve. Oh well, righeous indignation is the last refuge of a deluded soul, I guess.

Twitch

God answers the prayers of those who belong to Him. He is not obligated to answer any other prayers, as he has not promised to answer any other prayers. Before someone jumps on the 'choosiness' of this, those who belong to Him (through His Son) would have His spirit. Their prayers should then come from a place of trust and love, for Him and for their fellow man.

Those who do call on and pray to god will have their prayers answered, as long as they pray to the "true" god, correct?

Those who have trust and love in their heart but pray to a non-christian god are SOL.

Those who have trust and love in their heart but do not call on god are SOL.

Is this an accurate summary of the idea quoted?

AGuest

I understood where you were coming from, dear EP (the greatest of love and peace to you!) and took absolutely no offense - which I why I didn't comment: I "got" it (wink, wink).

On another note, there are three quite fascinating things going on here that are just blowing MY mind (well, not really, but ya'll know what I mean):

1. The total lack of understanding OF:

a. The Bible... what it IS... AND... what it SAYS;

b. Certain aspects of various religions/religious thinking (both christians and non-christian) as well as NON-religious but "spiritual" thinking, etc.,

among those who claim to "know" so as to raise the issues they are;

2. That such issues ARE raised along with "fists"... to God... while denying God at the same time;

3. The totally invalid arguments such one are making BASED on this [lack of understanding] (which actually render such arguments totally void, IMHO, because in order for the arguments to be valid, the PREMISES must be valid - and so I'm not even bothering to address some of them because they are steeped in utter falsehood and so make absolutely NO sense); and (most importantly, I think)...

3. The failure, for some reason, of some to realize what their [own] issues TRULY are. Which is NOT God. Because in one breath they deny God and/or belief in God... yet, absolutely DENY this [disbelief] in another breath by their words and blame! Based on what they post... and assert ("it's God's fault!") they very MUCH believe in God; they HAVE to... in order to remain true to their OWN position: that THEY are not delusional. Otherwise, HOW can something/someone that does NOT exist... BE AT FAULT? If there IS no God... how can God be to blame? If there is no God... then it IS man's "fault"... and NO ONE else's. Yet, these argue that there is no God... while arguing that all that mankind suffers is God's fault. Er? How... can... that... logically... be? It can't. So, why try to argue with regard to it?

Given all of this, the posts reveal to ME that the TRUE issue is NOT that they don't believe in God... but are "angry/upset" with Him. Their words seem to indicate that their "anger" lies in the condition of the world. But if you read what they are POSTING... you will see that there is much, much more to it. Why be angry with someone/something you don't even believe exists? THAT... is insane... delusional. THAT means you've given up YOUR control over what you believe is... and what you believe isn't. Because you have BOTH. And this is what causes such ones such angst and confusion; THIS is the true "cognizant dissonence".

I would surmise, from what is posted here from such ones, that the truth is that such ones DO believe in God... but are angry with Him for particular events/ommissions that have occurred in THEIR own lives. They are angry that "He" didn't come to their aid, their call, and/or "rescue" them from some "horror" they were subjected to... most likely very early in life and perhaps throughout. And, unfortunately, they aren't able to reconcile this with the professions of others as to their love of God (and His possible intervention in THEIR lives). "Why them and not ME?"

What these don't understand is that some, if not most, if not all of "us"... most probably suffered some of the same "horrors". However, we understand the SOURCE of such horrors... and that they did not originate with God... but that He was the One who helped us endure. And that whatever "horror" we may have experienced, someone elsewhere has experienced more and worse. Life... in this world... is just life. Nothing more, nothing less. People... are, for the most part... people. Some do good things, some do horrible things. Some have "good" lives (relatively speaking) and some have awful lives (again, relatively speaking).

But we blame those who brought such things UPON us... those who did not HAVE to, but CHOSE to... as well as ourselves for our own judgments, choices, and decisions in life. And not God. The first, we forgive. Ourselves, we forgive as well as ask for forgiveness. WE TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR OUR OWN LIVES from that time that we ARE responsible.

It blows my mind that, for once, these are hearing others take responsibility for their own actions, personally and with regard to their fellowman... and yet still have a problem. "We're" wrong... because we don't blame God. Yet... according to these, God doesn't exist. Yet, they blame God.

Seriously... SERIOUSLY... who is the insane/delusional here?

I know what I believe... and who I believe in... and why. I don't shake my fist in anger at the FSM or IPU. What would be the point?

(Shaking head)...

This thread gives a whole new meaning to "blind"... and who TRULY exhibits that "condition."

Again, peace to you all...

A slave of Christ,

SA

unshackled

You buying?

Hell yeah...I'll buy for you Tammy, and poopsie too. Can't afford the rest of you...but do come along.

tec

Those who do call on and pray to god will have their prayers answered, as long as they pray to the "true" god, correct?

As long as they 'belong' to Him. Which is not the same as praying to Him. The prayers of those who belong to Him are not going to go against his will, because they have his spirit. Love and trust FOR God (and that would mean his spirit as well, right). Satan isn't going to be able to get on his 'knees' and pray to the true God, to just kill all the humans... and have that prayer answered. Well, answered, perhaps, but just not in the affirmative.

Hope that is more understandable.

Peace,

Tammy