An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

by AK - Jeff 1495 Replies latest jw experiences

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    Getting back on track:

    Many say that there is no suffering of the innocent for none are innocent.

    Since “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), there is no one who has the right to freedom from God’s wrath on the basis of his own innocence.

    I will keep harping back to babies with birth defects and young Indonesian tsunami victims. If they are not "innocent enough" for God to intervene, then He is not worthy of worship. If His sacrifice of Jesus has paid the price, then that should be the end of that.

    I know the Christian standard answers, but I don't buy them:

    As far as babies are concerned, and others who may be incompetent mentally to distinguish right and wrong, it is clear from both Scripture and universal experience that they are sinners by nature and thus will inevitably become sinners by choice as soon as they are able to do so. The world is now under God’s Curse (Genesis 3:17) because of man’s rebellion against God’s Word (or just "God" if you want to be a Christian who rejects the Bible).

    Sincere believers love to tell us that God doesn't cause the problems facing mankind. They love to say that Jesus suffered beyond all other humans because he was truly the only "innocent" or righteous person. I just fall back to the view that I could not blame babies or children for turning away from God after what He stands by doing nothing about. And if the stories of Jesus were true, his suffering was not nearly as bad as the ongoing agony of many humans with disease and birth defects and he didn't have to go through the agony of parents losing their babies to disaster.

    It's a nice story that God will undo suffering or has known greater suffering than humans. It's just a story.

    It's an endless argument because people like me cannot see past the obvious unfairness toward the babies and children (and lifetimes of agony) and believers cannot see past the idea that we cannot judge God in these things, and even go so far as to claim that what people like me call "unfair" is really loving and merciful.

    I judge him. I find him lacking. I know I set myself up for lots of comments here, but I felt the need to bring this back on track.

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    http://biblos.com/ecclesiastes/8-11.htm

    Because sentence against evil is not executed quickly, the hearts of the son's of men are fully set in them to do evil. Ecclesiastes 8:11

    Why do you identify with persons by the very worst imagination of them? Why do you not seek to find the best of them? Except for maybe one of you, (I'm kidding), I can find good from you all.

  • nateb
    nateb

    That is what I mean. How do you know The Father is doing nothing?

    We're not saying that the "Father" is doing nothing, as in, we're mad at him. We're saying he obviously isn't around. If he is, he either can't fix it or won't fix it. It's very simple really. Dead and abused kids in plain view of their heavenly"Father" means that he's not much of a father at all. Not there. If he is, not worth a damn.

  • poopsiecakes
  • N.drew
    N.drew

    If you are one of the seemingly outwardly forsaken, hungry, sick children, then your argument is valid and someone might in their ignorance say "God bless you, please", but you are not, are you Mr. nateb?

  • Giordano
    Giordano

    If we think our god exists and should respond to human suffering what about the rest of the gods?

    Here's a list of the top religions by population (there's more then twenty) http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html: Note that Christianity makes up 33% of the worlds population the rest are non christian. I think it's fair to say ...most of the world does not believe in, or worship God and Jesus.

    Christian believers don't give the other gods any consideration either. From a religious point of view our answers are limited and of course thats one of the by products of religious thinking.

    While these figures are up look at the 3rd largest group. This is one of the fastest groups emerging and in many respects I think this 1.1 Billion who are non religious is an important milestone.

    1. Christianity: 2.1 billion
    2. Islam: 1.5 billion
    3. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
    4. Hinduism: 900 million
    5. Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
    6. Buddhism: 376 million
    7. primal-indigenous: 300 million
    8. African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
    9. Sikhism: 23 million
    10. Juche: 19 million
    11. Spiritism: 15 million
    12. Judaism: 14 million
    13. Baha'i: 7 million
    14. Jainism: 4.2 million
    15. Shinto: 4 million
    16. Cao Dai: 4 million
    17. Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
    18. Tenrikyo: 2 million
    19. Neo-Paganism: 1 million
    20. Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
  • N.drew
    N.drew

    So get to work! Please.

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    Allah is derived from two words, "al" and "ilah", the Arabic cognate of the feminine semitic "eloah".

    That is one school of thought, dear EP (again, peace to you, dear one!)... and actually, it is the one that furthers my point. With the article, it appears as al-?ilahah. Let me ask you: when you pronounce that "word"... what do you HEAR? "Al il ah"... or "Al il hah". In Arabic/Aramaic, it means for some "there is no god but Allah." For others, it means "there is no god except the one [true] god." However, I will share with you what my Lord had shared with ME... and that is that the term came from "Al (there is no) il (el, or god)... [but] Jah." In turn THIS phrase came from the Hebrew "hal el a Jah"... or... "hallel u Jah".

    As always, you do NOT have to take my word for it, dear one. You are more than free to ask, just as I did. (BTW, "eloah"... is actually "el o... wait for it... Jah". Much like "eli Jah." Really. I would NOT lie to you about this, dear one. I speak neither Hebrew, Arabic, or Aramaic. My Lord, however, not only speaks all three... but also knows the evolution/transition of all three. From Hebrew TO Arabic and Aramaic (a form of Hebrew and Chaldean).

    I was always curious as to why he chose to convert to Islam.

    Because, it actually holds to a purer form of worship than what most know to be "christianity", dear Twitch (again, peace to you!). Extremists, terrorists, and fanatics aside, of course. It is why they consider Jews and Christians (the descendants of Isaac) as deviants from true worship and thus "infidels". If my Lord had not come to me himself and MADE me a christian (by means of an anointing with holy spirit)... I would most probably have taken a look at Islam. Not because of its teachings, per se... but because of the conduct of Muslims I know personally... and what they tell me is BEHIND that conduct.

    Let’s just look at the destruction and death caused so called ‘by acts of God.’

    The operative words here, are "so-called," dear Glad (as always, peace to you!). WHO calls them that, though? We do. Man. WE attribute such to "God". My Lord never caused such, however. To the contrary, he is recorded to have calmed the wind, and doing so quite assertively. And so I must reject that the Most Holy One of Israel ever caused "acts" that many (perhaps even you, since you're raising the issue, here) blame Him for.

    Earth quakes, volcanoes, and tsunamis. We now know that they are the result movement or ruptures in the earths crust. They are not the result of man’s greed, atheism or angry gods.

    Exactly! So why BLAME God? They are merely the result of the PHYSICAL world we live in. It is what you GET when you deal with the empirical. The earth is a living organism. Living things move... and breath... and adjust... and... and... And such things are NO different as to us than OUR movement of earth (via our very steps) are to ants. What some seem to take issue with is that, perhaps, we're not much more important to the Most Holy One of Israel... than ants are to us. If one takes step back, however, one would see that just as ants ARE important to some of us... some of us ARE important to the Most Holy One of Israel. But it is NOT He who chooses who is important to Him: WE choose.

    This leaves just 2 possibilities: A) Is there a being or God powerful enough to stop these natural disasters? The answer for many is No. End of story.

    While the answer for some is, yes, absolutely. And that He does.

    B) If your answer is YES and this being, cosmic intelligence or God that created us and put us on this planet but now just floats around in outer space in retirement, when it could stop these pointless disasters, then it does not deserve the worship of humans.

    I can see how you would conclude that. I, on the other hand, conclude differently: that He has obligated Himself to protect ONLY those in a covenant with Him... and He had not broken HIS side of that agreement, to date. Does that mean He protects them from disaster? Yes... and no. It depends on the SOURCE of that disaster. If it is merely due to the changings undergone by the earth/physical realm... the answer is yes. If, however, it is due to persecutions suffered as a result of that individual's chance to respond to the challenge placed on HIM... by our Adversary... then the answer might be no. Rather, that individual just might be allowed to show... FOR HIMSELF... just how far he would go before he "cursed" God.

    There really is no alternative conclusion that we can come to without appearing as callous and cold hearted as the absent God.

    But that is YOUR opinion and POV, dear one! YOURS. But not EVERYONE'S. Certainly, not mine. You may disagree but I would MUCH rather be allowed to answer for my faith and loyalty MYSELF... than have someone step in and answer FOR me. Seriously! I can... and so WISH... to answer FOR MYSELF. MY loyalty is NOT based on what God has done/can do for me in a physical sense. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with how much I have (based on what He's "given" me)... how "successful" I am in THIS world... the state of my health... how well-liked/loved/popular I am with other people... or what's occurring around the globe (economically, politically, ethnically, or what have you). It is based on one thing and one thing only: my love... for HIM.

    For me plan a works well and makes more sense.

    And that's fine... and makes more sense... for YOU. But the teachings of the WTBTS, RCC, LDS, Islam, Buddhism, Taoism, Deism... etc... makes sense for those who put their faith in THEM. Just as capitalism, socialism, evolution, atheism, agnosticism, etc. make sense to those who put their faith in THEM. And what I hear... and share... makes sense to ME. All ANY of these can... and should... do... is share what they think/believe... and why. Anything more is no different than the crimes and hypocrisy they accuse one another of. The PROBLEMS, then, arise when these... when ANYONE... tries to MAKE others believe what they do. Either directly... through outright persecution... or indirectly... through psychological abuse and/or other forms of coercion.

    I have NEVER said anyone has to believe what I believe... or even accept what I share. I put it out there. Whether others hear... or refrain. Believe... agree... or don't believe, indeed disagree. I don't not lose sleep over others disagreeing. Why? Because it is not up TO me for THEM to get it. It is not BETWEEN me and them, at all. I do not... nor am I trying to... have any control over them or what they think/believe... anymore than I will let them have control over me and what I think/believe. They have to answer for themselves... just as I have to answer for MYSELF.

    one of the fastest groups emerging and in many respects I think this 1.1 Billion who are non religious is an important milestone.

    Well, perhaps this, if nothing else, will give some of you a little more insight into how I believe/think, dear Gio (peace to you, as well!). In YOUR mind, the increase is telling, indeed good news, because it indicates to YOU that the "majority" will someday be non-religious. Please pardon me while I change that to "non-believers" because, although I am a christian, I am absolutely non-religious. Okay. Anyhow, YOU see this as indicative in one sense: a changeover of the majority to non-belief.

    I, on the other hand, see this as good news in another way: fulfillment of prophecy. Let me explain: for YEARS I just could not get how keeping count of "publishers" and crowing over "increases" was something the WTBTS pushed. Because I was always reminded of folks like Gideon and events like David being penalized for keeping a census. Why count... and why rejoice over an increase if (1) "few" were the ones finding the "narrow gate" and walking on the "cramped road", (2) "few" were chosen, although many were called, and (3) numbers don't account for anything when it comes to "Jehovah" anyway? Never made sense... to ME. In fact, the reports always made me cringe; I felt like "we" are profaning "something."

    To see your statistics, however, that show that non-believers very well may one day outnumber "christians" (actually, they already do, and actually quite so!)... only says to ME... that "we" (christians) WILL be a much, much, MUCH smaller number when it comes down to the final days. Which is what was prophesied. True, there will be a "great" crowd... but just what does that word mean? It is "great"... only in comparison to the number sealed "from among the sons of Israel" - 144,000. So, even if the number of the "crowd" is 10 times the number of the sealed Israelites... it would only rank 18th or so on your list. Given that the world population will have increased even more by that time... it might actually be 20th... if not lower than that! I mean, given that the Greek word used at Revelation 7:9 for "great"... polys... really only means "many, much, large"... to assume that its billions, heck, even multiple millions... could be stretching it.

    Okay, let's see... no, I think I've responded to all that I need to. Other than to say there are several "pots" calling many "kettles" black on this thread... and since I AM black, taking offense would be silly on this thread, so...

    But, again, I bid you ALL peace!

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    Hi AGuest! How are you black? Your skin color? No, it doesn't matter, just wondering. It doesn't surprise me at all if you mean you are (what do they call people of color who are not from the USA?) I call you African American, but what if you're not? Haha But what I should say is persons of more interesting character. You can tell I'm not, I know.

    and since I AM black,
  • jay88
    jay88

    Aguest: If one takes step back, however, one would see that just as ants ARE important to some of us... some of us ARE important to the Most Holy One of Israel. But it is NOT He who chooses who is important to Him: WE choose

    Isn't that such a lovely gesture?!

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