An Old Argument.... does it hold water? (page 65)

N.drew

OK. Gods=power. Do atheists believe there is no power beyond muscle and brain power? So if all the people were evaporated, then all intelligent power is gone with them?

Christains tend to think differently. Fools we are! I mean, fool that I am.

AK - Jeff

In this area then, the application of any religious order or culture that believes that higher spirits can and do affect mankind, the original post stands -

Still, no theists will address the original premise with facts. Here it is again if you have forgotten:

Estimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet. That's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept. Still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?

1- God is evil.
2- God cannot or will not hear and answer prayers.
3- An omnipotent god simply does not exist.

Some have backed into acceptance of Premise #2. But none has openly admitted that IF he exists, then he either doesn't care; i.e.; doesn't answer prayers, cannot hear them, or is impotent in doing the work needed to resolve this issue -

This conundrum is inescapable it seems for them. For there is no acceptable answer except wavering and playing ignorant to the original discussion point.

Jeff

tec

Jeff, this conundrum is enescapable for you. There is no acceptable answer for you.

But most of the believers who have answered you, have no conundrum. That is what it seems like you cannot accept. But can you truly blame someone for not remaining in your 'three choices', if there happen to be more than three choices?

Peace,

Tammy

AK - Jeff

The theist who have posted on this thread have uttered a lot of words. But very few have addressed the original point above.

Please logically disprove it if you can - that was the entire point of the thread. You haven't proven anything, except that you want to believe in god no matter if he allows millions of kids to starve to death every year. You still desire to call him a loving heavenly father. You still wish him to be omniscient and omnipotent, in spite of the fact that he does not act. You still seek to unshoulder the burden of these starving children onto mankind - when that was never the point.

It is not my responsibilty either to feed all the hungry of the world. But if I could do so, I would do so. So either God is unsympathetic, uncaring, unable, or not there.

Jeff

AK - Jeff

What other choices are there, that don't fall under the original three choices?

N.drew

Greetings Jeff! I am so glad that you asked AGAIN.

I have a thesis, it is short.

I know there are children who have attempted to escape horror only to find themself in worse horrible conditions. I am talking about commercially sexually exploited children. It is happening right "under our noses"*. I do not know how it feels to starve. I do know how it feels to be sexually exploited (not to the same degree as those children were). You use the illustration of masses of starving children. May I change the illustration to thousands of trafficked youth? Would the atheists be willing to give up thier sexual pleasure (not forever, let's say for seven years) if it would guarantee the release of those children from their pimps?

The problem for these girls is sex and money. Shall the non-god do away with them? What do you think?

*The book GIRLS LIKE US by Rachel Lloyd HarperCollins Publishers 20011

TheUbermensch

I do believe this is what Jeff is talking about.

N.drew, that is not a thesis. I'm not sure where you learned what a thesis is, but a thesis addresses the topic at hand, and gives some sort of opinion or statement backed up by facts either agreeing with said statement or disagreeing. You only stated that you KNEW that these forms of torture exist "I know there are children who have attempted to escape horror only to find themself in worse horrible conditions. I am talking about commercially sexually exploited children. It is happening right "under our noses"*. I do not know how it feels to starve. I do know how it feels to be sexually exploited (not to the same degree as those children were). You use the illustration of masses of starving children" and then, instead of addressing the point that the bad things go on and God does nothing, you offer another example (against yourself) about trafficked youth. You DID NOT answer Jeff's question. WHY do these things happen and God does nothing. WHY? PLEASE I beg of you, ANSWER that question.

I do believe you just accused atheists of taking part in sexual pleasure offered by trafficked youth. "Would the atheists be willing to give up thier sexual pleasure (not forever, let's say for seven years) if it would guarantee the release of those children from their pimps?" If you were, that is highly offensive. If you just misworded it incorrectly, your premise is falsely proposed, because even if atheists gave up sexual pleasure (can't theists do the same?) for seven years, nothing would happen. You utilized hypothetical mysticism to propose an invalid solution to the situation of human trafficking.

Just PLEASE answer the question.

tec

First... to show that I did answer your question, from page 2,

If I had to choose from your three, it would be number two - to a limited degree... because of all the many variables. Are people praying to God? What are they praying for... do you know? How might a god answer contradictory prayers? What makes us think that our

prayers should be answered on our timeline, when He is the one who can see all possible outcomes to acting or not acting at any given time? Were we ever even promised a good life in the first place, or were we warned that in this life, there would be suffering?

Your choices are limited in that they do not address so many variables.

Suffering cannot be taken away without taking away all those who cause suffering (either through direct action, or indifference). Showing mercy instead of doing that might be one of the best 'teaching' that calls people to show mercy, themselves. Do you know how grateful people are, how much they love (God and those who belong to God), when they realize that they are being forgiven and shown mercy that they know they do not deserve? Evil begets evil... but good can defeat it. Hate begets hate... but love can defeat it. So another option is that there are still those out there who will hear and understand this, and so God waits for them.

Yet another option is that God gave us this world to govern... which we wanted to govern by our own power and methods, and not His methods. So here we are in a world of our own making. We have what we want... yet we find that what we want is not REALLY what we want. (hence wanting God to end our problems) Yet we are still not willing to go to Him, to follow His teaching.

Peace,

Tammy

EntirelyPossible

that's not a real analogy since we don't have that power or ability and you are asking me what a group of people I don't know would or wouldn't be willing to do. Also, does this include existing girls, all future trafficking, enslavement, etc?

Conversely, you claim that you do know god and he does have the power (otherwise, by definition, he isn't god). Also, god wouldn't have give up ANYTHING, he would just have to do it. Therefore, the analogy breaks down.

N.drew

How did I know someone would say that "It's not us buying the children for sex". I knew someone would say it, but I wasn't betting on who. The rest of the thesis is in the last 32 pages dumb ass. Are you not dumb? I am sorry, but from my perpective, that is what I see. So God should stop the hunger, but not the sex. Got ya!

An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

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