But it is offensive to a Jewish person when a trinitarian tells them they are wrong in their beliefs.
No kidding. John 15:18
Do you hate God
by Star tiger 225 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
jonathan dough
Jonathan-
Referring to Jews as antichrist is both anti-semitic and insulting. everytime I try to reason with someone who is a trinitarian it always comes down to the trinitarian is right, and everyone else is wrong.
Jonathan, Jewish people do not go around preaching to "Christians" and telling them that their belief in God is wrong. Jews believe the Jewish view of God is right for THEM. Jewish people don't tell Christians what to believe or not to believe.
But it is offensive to a Jewish person when a trinitarian tells them they are wrong in their beliefs.
I expected you to say that. First, it is not antisemitic in the least, and your feigned insult is the result of New Testament ignorance. Just criticizing and pointing out theological differences between Jews and Christians is not antisemitic. Look up the definition of "antichrist" in the Bible and you will see clearly that it is broad and includes those who deny that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who came in the flesh. Therefore, Jews are antichrist. Muslims are antichrist as well. As are atheists. I'm one of the least antisemitic people on the planet, believe me. I just don't like how some of them, like you, try to leverage their sad history and place a guilt complex on people who simply have opinions; people like you are no different than JWs who scream persecution when it is mere criticism. I'm not advocating another holocaust; please don't take that out of context, either. I'm just pointing out a clear definition in Scripture of the term "antichrist."
Secondly, you seem to be living in a box oblivious to history because the Jews did persecute Christians, slaughtered them even, because they believed the Christians' views of God were wrong. It went far beyond simply telling Christians they had the wrong idea of God, so you need to get your history straight. And I doubt seriously that no Jews today tell Christians their views of God are wrong - you're just making that up, and Designs will prove my point - or that this message is never preached at synagogue, or that Jews don't defend their beliefs in places like, say, message boards and online forums. And if I'm correct, one Jewish mandates is to convert and preach their faith, which means naturally, that explicitly or implicitly, part of that conversion process involves telling the other side they are wrong.
And third, if you're offended because we think you're wrong, that's your problem and you need to grow a thicker skin. Quite selfish and narrow minded to censor others and their opinions because you're offended. You're no different than the Company in this regard. I don't know what country you live in, but in the United States we have the First Amendment to the Bill of Rights that guarantees freedom of expression, and we have strong religious freedoms as well, which trump any offense you might have at being told something you don't wish to hear.
http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-5.html#25
“The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is that there is one God, who exists in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. These three persons share the one divine nature. They are equal, co-eternal and omnipotent. They are distinct from one another: The Father has no source, the Son is born of the substance of the Father, the Spirit proceeds from the Father (or from the Father and the Son). Though distinct, the three persons cannot be divided from one another in being or in operation (Oxford Dictionary of the Bible [New York, Oxford University Press, Inc., 2005] 1207) (Oxford). With minor changes, the reformed Protestant churches have essentially adapted the Catholic teachings on the Trinity Doctrine (see section 12).
Central to the doctrine that God is three Persons in one nature is the premise that “Jesus is God,” a term which causes great confusion among the Jehovah’s Witnesses who unfortunately do not understand what is meant by this Trinitarian phrase or what the Trinity doctrine teaches. One of their more bizarre errors lies in believing that Christ is a created angel who became man and after the resurrection reverted back to being an angel.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses have published countless pages of criticism of Christian Trinitarianism, teaching that it is the work of Satan and utterly illogical. This relentless attack, however, is based upon certain misconceptions and falsehoods allowing them to capitalize on many unsuspecting individuals’ ignorance of accurate Trinity dogma.Three of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ false teachings are particularly misleading and form the core vehicle for the dissemination of gross distortions.
First, they do not understand that a "Person" is not a material human being like you or I. Persons of the Trinity are spirit. Secondly, they do not understand that God is "three" in one sense, and "one" in a completey different sense. And third, the Jehovah’s Witnesses are unwilling or unable to acknowledge or grasp the concept of the hypostatic union, the union that is the God-man Jesus, who is fully God the Son and fully man, a divine Person who assumed a human nature. Intertwined with this concept is the often ignored principle that the created humanity of Jesus is not God: “The humanity of Christ is a creature, it is not God” (Catholic Encyclopedia, 922). Accordingly, Jesus, the man in the God-man equation, could pray to His Father and acknowledge His Father’s superiority without committing any doctrinal contradictions. The Jehovah’s Witnesses, on the other hand, teach that the incarnate Jesus was nothing more or less than a man.This treatise begins by shining a light on the worst of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ misunderstandings, and goes on to explain in greater detail what the Trinity doctrine actually teaches. From there, many of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ arguments against the doctrine of the Trinity are disposed of in light of more accurate teaching, after which a further examination is made of scriptural support for the Trinity in the Bible.
A major section is then devoted to select Bible verses that prove that Jesus was, and is, God, followed by a brief summary of early Trinitarian theology which provides us with a better understanding of the doctrine’s foundation. The concluding section is devoted to the issue of Jesus Christ being a created angel.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses, whose religion is essentially 4th century Arian Subordinationism (see section 41) have said many things about the doctrine of the Trinity that are simply not true. Out of a sense of common decency and respect, those who propound and believe in the doctrine and people who seek to understand it better are entitled at a minimum to a fair hearing on the issues, which is the primary goal of this work.
But before you begin, it is very important to understand two simple concepts which lie at the heart of many of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ errors; the difference between immanent Trinity and economic Trinity, and how they have commingled them, resulting in untold confusion even though it contravenes even their own teachings.
-
designs
...And Jonathan again you are Wrong. Here's a tough one- do some homework, read Anti Semitism in the New Testament by Freudmann.
Better yet go to your local Synagogue and ask the Rabbi about the Shema One God and how it is not the Triune One God of the Christians, or have moshe explain to you for the umptenth time how in his Conversion to Judaism (Geirut) he was asked to renounce things like the Trinity.
-
jonathan dough
...And Jonathan again you are Wrong. Here's a tough one- do some homework, read Anti Semitism in the New Testament by Freudmann.
Now you're claiming the entire New Testament is anti-semitic? Come now. Just because Christ nailed the Mosaic Law to the cross, judged Israel and cast them off, initiated a New Covenant and started Christianity in motion doesn't make YHWH, or Jesus, or the apostles, anti-semitic as that term now is used by the Nazis and skin-heads, or anyone who hates Jews because their Jews, or blacks because they're black. Under your standard YHWH was anti-semitic when he sent Babylon to destroy the Jews in 587 and before. You're saying your version of YHWH is anti-semitic.
http://144000.110mb.com/607/index.html
Better yet go to your local Synagogue and ask the Rabbi about the Shema One God and how it is not the Triune One God of the Christians, or have moshe explain to you for the umptenth time how in his Conversion to Judaism (Geirut) he was asked to renounce things like the Trinity.
You're spinning your wheels. The fact that a Rabbi wrote a book claiming YHWH is not a triune God is his opinion, you've offered no proof discrediting the triune claim, and you're no closer to proving that the God of Jacob, YHWH, is not triune in nature. If you want to make the argument, do more than quote titles to books others have written and which you probably haven't read, and actually set forth some evidence, some proof. The same with Moshe renouncing the Trinity; it's beside the point and doesn't prove anything material with respect to what I wrote. If you bothered to read my post, you will see that I stated that even though the Jews don't believe YHWH is triune in nature, that's not relevant, it's immaterial. It's like saying "God doesn't exist because I don't believe he exists." The Jews' opinion that YHWH is not triune is not evidence with respect to whether YHWH is indeed Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Nowhere did I state that the Jews believed that YHWH was triune in nature. You need to pay close attention to what I actually wrote. What I said was that both worship the one God of the Old Testament, YHWH; the Christians recognize His triune nature, but the Jews don't. But it's the same YHWH, triune, regardless of whether the Jews believe that or understand that. Their YHWH is still triune.
Guess what despite your Groups best efforts to wipe the Jewish people off the face of the earth they (we) are here.
That's a lie. "Our group," Christians, Americans, Canadians, and other allies, spilled blood on your account during World War II, and a lot of it. We sacrificed our lives to save yours, with little thanks in return. If it wasn't for "our group" there wouldn't be a Jew in Israel today breathing. Who do you think is keeping Israel from being wiped out? The United States, its allies, and a triune God. Not that things won't go bad for Israel in the near future if you read Ezekiel Chapter 38-39 and elswhere. But to blame all of the Jews' woes on "our group" is narrow-minded, even if many of those persecutors dared to call themselves 'Christian."
-
designs
Jesus didn't do anything but die, if he even existed. Guess what despite your Groups best efforts to wipe the Jewish people off the face of the earth they (we) are here.
You seem to be functioning under the delusion that some sky-god was behind military campaigns.
-
still thinking
I knew this was going to turn into a trinity thread...trinity blah blah...I'm right...you're wrong...blah blah.
YHWH is a fable...move on.
Just another situation where the person who is offended says so, and the person doing the offending tells the offended person they don't know what they are talking about....they are right.
I hate religion!!! All it does is breed hate.
-
tec
Just because Christ nailed the Mosaic Law to the cross, judged Israel and cast them off
Um... Christ never judged Israel OR cast them off. Never. He forgave them. He even said that they would see Him if they simply said blessed is He who comes in the name of Jah. They can go to Him at any time; answer the call at any time. And even Paul (a JEW) said, "All Israel will be saved."
He said that so that the gentiles would not become misled or arrogant.
Peace,
Tammy
-
jonathan dough
Just because Christ nailed the Mosaic Law to the cross, judged Israel and cast them off
Um... Christ never judged Israel OR cast them off. Never. He forgave them. He even said that they would see Him if they simply said blessed is He who comes in the name of Jah. They can go to Him at any time; answer the call at any time. And even Paul (a JEW) said, "All Israel will be saved."
He said that so that the gentiles would not become misled or arrogant.
You're wrong, Tammy, and need to study the NT closer because your version is novel, to say the least. They can go to him, but only through the New Testament New Covenant. And "All Israel being Saved" refers to a) Christian spiritual Israel under the New Covenant, Jews and gentiles, and b) Jews in the future who come in under Christ, under the NC, and no other way. He came down, preached, made the rounds, and was rejected, stomped the dust off his feet and nailed the Mosaic Law to the cross with his blood sacrifice. When Jews are saved, it's not under the Law, not under the Old Covenant which is works based. They can only be saved by grace, through faith, not by works. Eph. 2:8,9. We're talking about eternal salvation, here. Remember, Jesus said that "No one comes to the Father except through me" not the Jewish mosaic law. He also said "If you don't believe that I AM you will die in your sins." The religious Jews who rejected him were not "forgiven" but nevertheless gained eternal salvation, as you appear to be claiming, and I would like to see in the Bible where you read this, if you would be so kind.
-
Qcmbr
..and then Jesus watched as the Jews got massacred time and time again throughout history. What a brilliant saviour.
-
designs
Qcmbr- You pegged it.
The Apostle Paul was like Mad Max on steriods, his Gentile Cult reshaped civilization, and not in a good way.