Do you hate God

by Star tiger 225 Replies latest jw friends

AGuest

You make it sound as though a Christian need never read the Bible at all, but that kind of mysticism is dangerous and opens the door for the devil to step in with misinformation when the truth is in black and white before us.
Really. Aren't you giving the Adversary more credit... and power... than the truth, dear JD (peace to you!)? And can you, please, "show" us where the truth "is in black and white before us"? In return, I offer you the following:
"I am... the truth." John 14:6
"You will know the truth and the truth will set you free. ... Therefore, if the SON sets you free you will truly BE free." John 8:32, 36
"Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth."John 17:17
"The word was with God... the word became flesh..." John 1:1, 14
"He has a name... the word of God..."Revelation 19:13
"... that HE might sanctify the people withHIS blood..." Hebrews 13:12
"You search the scriptures because you THINK that by means of THEM you will have life. And these are the ones that bear witness about ME; yet, you do not want to come... to ME... that you may have life." John 5:39, 40
"Come to ME, all you who are toiling and loaded down... and I will refresh you! Matthew 11:28
"If anyone is thirsty let him come to ME and drink! ... just as the SCRIPTURES say: Out from HIS inmost part streams of LIVING water will flow!"John 7:37, 38
BUT... show me, PLEASE... where [in] the Bible says that IT [the Bible] is the truth... OR the word of God. PLEASE. Because everywhere I'VE looked in it... it says CHRIST is the truth... AND the word of God. So, if one needs to LOOK at/to something... would it not be HIM... the "copper serpent" (seraph) that was raised up... and NOTHING else?? John 3:14; Numbers 21:8, 9; Mark 6:16
Believers don't wait for the truth to drop out of the sky,
No, they rely on the anointing with holy spirit that they received (1 John 2:26, 27; John 15:4-6). Through it, God and Christ dwell IN such one... make their abode IN them... they, being the TEMPLE (dwelling place) of God's spirit. That dwelling makes them ONE with God, through Christ... by means of BLOOD. God's blood (holy spirit) and theirs... become one. It is through the blood... which SPEAKS... that they RECEIVE truth... FROM the Truth, Christ.
but they should take "the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God." Eph. 6:17.
Well, now, let's look at that. Show me, please, where the Bible says that IT is a sword. It does not. It says God's WORD is a two-edged sword. One only has to look at the depiction of him at Revelation 19:15 to know WHO this is speaking of: the Word of God, Christ, who is ALIVE... and exerts POWER. He is not some lame, inactive person sitting around "waiting" for something to happen. He is RULING... even in the midst of his enemies. Which is why there ISN'T a creation that is not manifest to HIS sight, but ALL things naked and openly exposed to HIS eyes. Hebrews 4:12, 13; John 20:18; Luke 24:5, 6
And if you're going to take the tack that the WTBTS takes when attempting to 'splain that part of the [spiritual] "armour" that is "the sword of the spirit, that is, God's word", that, too, is talking about Christ, God's Word... from who comes the "sword of the spirit." What is the "sword"? Truth. what is the truth? Christ. John 14:6 Therefore, the "sword" would be the TRUTH that comes ONLY from Christ... and NO OTHER SOURCE, including the Bible... which truth uncovers, exposes, divides... and conquers.
I don't get the impression that you will look up a single one of these citations, dear JD... but I could be wrong. Would that I am... and you get the sense of these things. You could, however, rather than rely on the Bible and continue walking by SIGHT... ask for, so as to receive, holy spirit... the blood of God... through Christ... by means of which you can walk... by FAITH.
Again, peace to you!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA, who totally cited Romans 11... virtually the entire chapter, so not sure what you're on about, there...
ShadesofGrey

The JW religion claims that the truth is black and white in the scriptures. Without Holy Spirit, many are deceived as to their meaning. We are also told to test things and not be deceived... look at 2 John and 1 John. It is about balance.
I wonder, dear friends, if the Holy Spirit does teach us... why do we feel the need to argue with other Christian's beliefs? Will the Spirit not correct them?
tec

Hello Jonathan,
I would like to clear something up, so we don't have this misundertanding between us. I am not intending to be snippy. I am not angry at all. I am disagreeing with you, but I think we can do that without becoming angry. So please do not read that into anything I write, because I certainly don't mean to imply it. I'm not angry or annoyed at all.
She typed out some verses, failed to cite them, and failed to analyze them properly.
She typed out Romans Chapter 11, which I cited. Though the citing is not as important as what is actually being said, is it? And who decides who has done the proper analysis?

But Tammy, you left out where the Bible says Jesus "opened their minds to understand the Scriptures." Luke 24:45. And "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 2 Timothy 3:16."." In times past there was no Scripture and of necessity God made direct contact, but you're applying an antiquated exception. One is to study the law, day and night. Psalm 1:2. It's the Gospel that is preached, and that is found in the New Testament.

You make it sound as though a Christian need never read the Bible at all, but that kind of mysticism is dangerous and opens the door for the devil to step in with misinformation when the truth is in black and white before us. Believers don't wait for the truth to drop out of the sky, but they should take "the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God." Eph. 6:17.

I left those out because they weren't pertinent to what I was trying to show. The Spirit does teach, guide, speak. The Spirit also opened their eyes to the scriptures. (but we could get into a whole other can of worms, regarding what is scripture... because at that time, scripture was not the same as what we call scripture today) But we also can't deny that the power of the Spirit is more than the 'scriptures' - considering that those scriptures can be mishandled by men - as even they attest to.
So the danger is present in both cases; one of the reasons we are called to 'test' inspired e x pressions or spirits. I test everything against Christs' teachings (by word or deed), and against love, and against mercy. Could I ever be wrong...? Of course. But love covers over a multitude of sins. And I trust Christ and God to guide me, as long as I continue to look to Christ. Which I sometimes fail to do, and it is often during those times that I do mess up.
You act as though the world doesn't need a Bible.
No, I think the world needs the bible... because the world does walk by sight, at least most of us do so to start out. But once we walk by faith, and have the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, to teach us... then no, we no longer need the bible to teach us. Because we have the Spirit to teach us.
A question? Do you think faith in Christ and God would still be here without the bible, or do you think it would die if there was no bible?
I'm not claiming that God doesn't communicate with his followers, but to base your entire concept of Bible truth on voices in your head is reaching and extremely dangerous.
I don't base anything on voices in my head. I don't have voices in my head.
I do base my faith on Christ. I have learned about him in the bible. I have also learned lies about him from religions 'based on the bible'. So I have learned to go to Him, in faith and in spirit. Sometimes I need to 'see' something too, in writing... but unless what I have seen is verified in spirit, then I find that I do not embrace if fully.
But I have never been disapointed in going to Christ in Spirit and in Faith.
Had there been Scripture in those days I'm quite certain that those men and women of old would have consulted it. I'm not talking about your conscience helping you discern right from wrong, but relying on voices instead of the Bible is patently unscriptural today.
Perhaps they would have consulted the scripture. (though I think that would have shown a lack of faith) But that would have been redundant, in their case. Especially if those scriptures had been altered? Would they have gone with the scripture then, and ignored God?

All right, I'll change that. He definately was addressing only the ignorant Roman soldiers who nailed him to the cross. And my previous post certainly verifies that.
It doesn't, at least it has not to me. I don't know how you can make that 'change' either, just like that. By what authority do you make a statment like that? How do you know?

Although he also consulted the pillars in Jerusalem and Peter for information on Christ.
Paul did not go to see those who were apostles... until 3 years after his revelation, when he went to get acquainted with Peter. He was proclaiming Christ before then.
If there wasn't refelation to some people we wouldn't have a Bible. Paul, like older prophets, were conduits, which I hope you aren't claiming to be, and they most certainly did consult the Law. In the Christian Era with access to Scripture, faith is inseperable from Scripture. Otherwise you wouldn't even know about Jesus - in whom you are to have faith in.
I am not claiming to be anything.
I agree that the spirit would not contradict scripture... but what is scripture? Words that can be and have been tampered with, mistranslated, taken out of context? Paul's letters (even though he says things within them that are NOT from God but from him, by his own admission)?
Look, Jonathan, I do not dismiss the bible. But I do not give it more power than the Spirit. And if there were no bible, there would still be a Spirit who taught.
Not meaning to insult, but you might consider reading more, listening to other preachers and ministers, etc. The radio is a good start. Christianity is faith-based. Too much, in my opinion in light of how people often never crack a Bible. They don't all put an emphasis on sight.
No insult taken. But if I can listen to Christ, then why would I listen to anyone else? Christ is the Truth. (and I have cracked my bible open... end to end more than once, some sections many many times... but all of that can mean absolutely nothing without the spirit)

Utter nonsense, and unbiblical. What religion do you belong to? Judgment Day is approaching.
Love covers over a multitude of sins is biblical. I desire mercy is biblical. Do not judge lest you be judged is biblical. With the measure you use it will be measured against you is biblical. Be merciful, and mercy will be shown to you is biblical.
So if I am going to make a mistake (commit nonsense)... then I would rather it stem from mercy and love; rather than judgmentalism, dogma, and a lack of mercy/love.
And I belong to no religion.
I belong only to Christ. (unworthily on my behalf, no doubt) What He chooses to do with me is entirely up to Him.
But that is a narrow reading that doesn't consider other relevant verses as I explained. "Believe and you will be saved" doesn't mean "only belief in Christ will save you eternally." Otherwise the devil and his demons will be saved as well. Context, and other verses
apply.
I'm not sure why you addressed this to me. We must have a misunderstanding. I have said this same thing before as well. You must do more than just believe in the existance of Christ. You must place your faith IN Him. "If you love me, you will obey my commands, and my father will love you, and we will come and make our home with you."
Peace,
Tammy
NewYork44M

Do I hate god? No, in fact we have a very good relationship. I don't talk with god and he does not talk with me. We both seem to be doing just fine...Thank you very much for asking.
jonathan dough

Tammy: Jonathan, maybe you should just stop saying that God rejected His people?
Paul says, "By no means!"
See my answer to Aguest below, so I don't have to retype it.
AGuest: Now, you might think that this means He could reject some, but not reject ALL. That, too, is inaccurate. Because ALL have sinned. He will not, however, be so unrighteous so as to save SOME of them... and not ALL of them. They rejected Christ as their king... and as a result salvation came to the NATIONS; however, once the FULL number of the nations have come it... it turns back to the entire nation of Israel, dear one. All 12 tribes. Which is why NO MAN can number the "crowd" (who come out of EVERY nation... including Israel).

I don't now what religion you claim to belong to, by mainstream Christianity teaches that your view is incorrect, and has for two thousand years. Reference to "the entire seed" does not mean every Jewish Israelite or the entire nation, even if they reject Christianity in the future, even if they deny Christ. Paul makes this abundantly clear. You need to read other verses to place this in context and understand what it means. Also, you fail to quote those verses that prove you wrong. Paul explains that when Israel is grafted back in it is because of their rejection of unbelief, in other words, their eventual belief, in Christ. They were rejected because of their unbelief, but those who believe will be saved based on their conversion, not because they are Jews by nature or are under the Old Covenant. A remnant of Israel will be saved, not the entire nation, and only under the Christian New Covenant. I discuss the New Covenant in great detail here: http://144000.110mb.com/144000/i-3.html#A

Also, the "root" Paul refers to does not refer to all Israelites of all time. Granted, the root is holy, but it refers to the patriarchs. And while the remnant might be entitled to special providence in the future which remains a mystery to us, it applies only to the remnant. "Israel remains holy in the eyes of God and stands witness to the faith described in the Old Testament because of the firstfruits (or the first piece baked) (16), that is, the converted remnant, and the root that is holy, that is, the patriachs (16), NAB 11:16-24 Notes. According to Paul, "full inclusion" does not mean all natural Jews, but only some of them.

"Romans 11:1 ("... has God rejected his people? Of course not) "... is to be regarded as conveying the sense of an objection. Paul, in the previous chapters, had declared the doctrine that all the Jews were to be rejected. To this a Jew might naturally reply, Is it to be believed, that God would cast off his people whom he had once chosen; to whom pertained the adoption, and the promises, and the covenant, and the numerous blessings conferred on a favorite people? It was natural for a Jew to make such objections. And it was important for the apostle to show that his doctrine was consistent with all the promises which God had made to his people. The objection, as will be seen by the answer which Paul makes, is formed on the supposition that God had rejected "all his people," or "cast them off entirely." This objection he answers by showing,

(1) That God had saved him, a Jew, and therefore that he could not mean that God had east off all Jews."I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin." Romans 11:1

(2) That now, as in former times of great declension, God had reserved a remnant. Romans 11:2-5; "2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

(3) That it accorded with the Scriptures that a part should be hardened. Romans 11:6-10; "6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”[a]

9 And David says:

“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”[b] "

(4) That the design of the rejection was not final, but was to admit the Gentiles to the privileges of Christianity. Romans 11:11-24; " 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! "

(5) That the Jews should yet return to God, and be reinstated in his favor: so that it could not be objected that God had finally and totally cast off his people, or that he had violated his promises.

At the same time, however, the doctrine which Paul had maintained was true, that God had taken away their exclusive and special privileges, and had rejected a large part of the nation." See Barnes Notes on the Bible.
http://www.144000.110mb.com/
designs

Do any of you see how rediculous Romans 11 is, well actually all of Romans.
There was a great Jewish Billboard response to the Jesus Movement in the 70's, oh never mind.
tec

The JW religion claims that the truth is black and white in the scriptures. Without Holy Spirit, many are deceived as to their meaning. We are also told to test things and not be deceived... look at 2 John and 1 John. It is about balance.
Yes.
I wonder, dear friends, if the Holy Spirit does teach us... why do we feel the need to argue with other Christian's beliefs? Will the Spirit not correct them?
If they are listening to the Spirit, then yes, I think the Spirit will correct them.
What if they are not listening to the Spirit, though, and they are misleading others as well (blind leading the blind)? If you know the truth to something, should you not speak it? Not to argue. But to share, to discuss... to help?

If no one had told me that the spirit teaches, guides, speaks... then I would not have known because I was not listening to the Spirit. I am grateful to have been shown that possibility... not to blindly accept of course, but to test for myself. Against what is written, yes (because at the time I did not know to ask Christ and to listen to the Spirit), and then to put faith in Christ and listen for the spirit, because even what is written corroborates that.
Peace to you,
Tammy
tec

Not ignoring you, Designs... though I am grinning a little at what this seems like to your pov (...'oh never mind'...). But you and I have had this discussion before. I'm sure we probably will again, lol.
In either case, peace be with you and those you love,
Tammy
AGuest

if the Holy Spirit does teach us... why do we feel the need to argue with other Christian's beliefs? Will the Spirit not correct them?
I am to refer you to the words of Christ at Matthew 24:24, regarding false prophets and FALSE CHRISTS, dear SOG (the greatest of love and peace to you!), as well as Luke's account of the exchange between Priscilla, Aquila, and Apollos at Acts 18:24-26. In the latter, Luke stated Apollos to be "aglow with the spirit... speaking and teaching with correctness about [Jesus] but being acquainted only with the baptism of John (as most are, although there is another baptism!)."
I am also to refer you to the account regarding circumcision... where some who even walked with Christ were still making is a requirement (although Peter tried to tell them it no longer was... which they acquiesced to, for awhile - Acts 11:1-18; however, acquiescence is NOT acceptance - it's merely a giving in, usually because one's argument against isn't as strong as the argument FOR, or vice versa). Paul and Barnabas were against it, but due to opposition from certain men in Judea, travelled to Jerusalem to speak with the 12 and other older men about it. It was NOT an apostle, however, who received direction from the spirit, but James, the fleshly brother of my Lord. He based HIS position on what PETER had previously taught on the matter (Acts 15:1-21). Because the SPIRIT bore witness to the TRUTH of this to THEM, the apostles and older men THEN wrote to those of the nations in various places, telling them that they... by means of such spirit... had decided to add no further burden to the people by requiring them to be circumcised (Acts 15:23-29).
BUT... until Paul it to their attention... and JAMES decided (Acts 15:19)... these (the apostles, sans Peter) never even CONSULTED the Spirit on the matter... and so along with certain older men were teaching that circumcision WAS required. Peter, Paul, and Barnabas, however... had already apparently RECEIVED this information on the matter from the Spirit... and were walking according to IT. James got it next, when HIS spirit bore witness to the truth of it, based on what PETER told him... and then, after he ACCEPTED it and said HIS position on it... the others ALLOWED themselves to accept it (again, because, again, they had given in when Peter told them, but returned to their old ways when he departed from them). They LISTENED to the Spirit... which they had NOT been doing prior to.
Not only will the Holy Spirit, Christ... tell one something that he has NOT revealed to another/others, but he will tell such one to share it with others. This is ONLY the case, however, when those needing to be told... ARE NOT LISTENING for themselves. Due to fear, doubt, hard-headedness... or having not yet actually RECEIVED the promised holy spirit... the blood/breath/seed (semen) of God... by which such ones are anointed - the "oil of exultation." It it THROUGH this "blood"... this oil... holy spirit... that God SPEAKS to such one, through Christ.
We have not attained to the time, yet, when God's law is written on the hearts of ALL who belong to Him through Christ - that day will come, have no doubt. Until then, however, those who DO have that law written [on their hearts] should... MUST... out of LOVE... share those writings. Unfortunately, there are others... false "christs" (anointed)... claiming to be "christians" (yet, not having received the choosing which MAKES them "christians" - chosen people)... who, while leaning upon their OWN understanding... undertake to "teach" God's people. And... they outnumber those who truly possess that spirit.
So, how does one know WHO to believe? Go with Christ, the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17). Ask HIM... and then put FAITH in what you HEAR. In doing THAT... one can NEVER go wrong.
I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
jonathan dough

Me: Utter nonsense, and unbiblical. What religion do you belong to? Judgment Day is approaching.

You: Love covers over a multitude of sins is biblical. I desire mercy is biblical. Do not judge lest you be judged is biblical. With the measure you use it will be measured against you is biblical. Be merciful, and mercy will be shown to you is biblical.
Me: You intentionally left out what I was responding to, which is: "If you must interpret (which can be mistaken), then would you not rather err on the side of mercy, and of love, and of forgiveness to all? "Love covers over a multitude of sins".
Your statement with respect to "forgiveness to all" is not biblical." All mankind is not forgiven. You, like the JWs, seem to be teaching that all men are acquitted of their sins at death, which is utterly false.
No, I think the world needs the bible... because the world does walk by sight, at least most of us do so to start out. But once we walk by faith, and have the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, to teach us... then no, we no longer need the bible to teach us. Because we have the Spirit to teach us.
I can't believe you said that. Even Christ disagrees with you. His word IS the spirit. "The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life," John 6:63. And Paul at Colossians said "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly." For your information, I never claimed not to consult the Holy Spirit, not to rely on faith, but never faith or spirit in a vacuum, and never without the Bible as rudder.

All right, I'll change that. He definately was addressing only the ignorant Roman soldiers who nailed him to the cross. And my previous post certainly verifies that.

It doesn't, at least it has not to me. I don't know how you can make that 'change' either, just like that. By what authority do you make a statment like that? How do you know?

I know that God doesn't forgive all people, including the Jews, who killed him because of all I have written elswhere that I'm not about to retype for you here. This idea that all humans are forgiven their sins goes against the core of the New Testament. It's crazy talk. Judgment Day is coming, and it includes some, if not most, of those of the Jewish faith.

Although he also consulted the pillars in Jerusalem and Peter for information on Christ.

Paul did not go to see those who were apostles... until 3 years after his revelation, when he went to get acquainted with Peter. He was proclaiming Christ before then.

Again, you're implying something I never said simply to argue for its own sake. I'm fully aware that Paul claimed that most of what he knew came from revelation, but he also supplemented it later with information in Israel. I never claimed Paul was not proclaiming Christ before then.

But that is a narrow reading that doesn't consider other relevant verses as I explained. "Believe and you will be saved" doesn't mean "only belief in Christ will save you eternally." Otherwise the devil and his demons will be saved as well. Context, and other verses apply.

I'm not sure why you addressed this to me. We must have a misunderstanding. I have said this same thing before as well. You must do more than just believe in the existance of Christ. You must place your faith IN Him. "If you love me, you will obey my commands, and my father will love you, and we will come and make our home with you."

I did not claim to know how all Israel will be saved. Only that Paul states it.

I was referring to your statement that "I did not claim to know how all Israel will be saved. Only that Paul states it. It's an incorrect, and narrow, interpretation because you are taking one line of verse and not reading the others written by him, which explain what he meant by that. By analogy, people take the statement "believe and you will be saved" to mean all one has to do to be saved is believe. It's the same type of false, and narrow, analysis. JWs do it all the time. http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html

Do you hate God

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