Do you hate God

by Star tiger 225 Replies latest jw friends

tec

Why don't you show us where in the Bible? If it isn't mainstream, and preached by a fringe group, then it really is novel in light of orthodox teachings. Which religion teaches this?
I did, and Shelby typed it all out above (peace and love to you; thank you for that).
As to the Spirit teaching:
John 14:26 "But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."
John 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears and he will tell you what is yet to come."
No, actually that is what the Bible is there for, to teach us. Of course we ask for understanding, but as it relates to Scripture if that is where the answer lies. I'd rather not wait for voices whispering in my head. You need something a bit more concrete than that, and we
have that already.
A good chapter to read is Hebrews 11. (I hope that you read it... I could type it out if anyone would rather not look it up) But none of those people (Abraham, Enoch, Moses, Abel, Noah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Rahab, etc, etc) had scriptures telling them what to do or believe. No scripture told Noah to build an arc, or told Abraham to leave his land, or told Moses to lead the people out of Egypt. Yet they did these things... and they are all commended for walking by their faith. Not by their SIGHT. They had no 'concrete' bible, and they were praised for their faith.
Paul did not recieve revelation through the scriptures either. He had the scriptures and they did nothing for him. He received revelation straight from Christ, the Truth.
We might not all have that, at least not yet. So we may have to rely on the bible (concrete/and by sight) for a time. But we should yearn for the Spirit to teach us, shouldn't we? We should have faith in that; ask for ears to hear and eyes to see?
I think so. But I think so many don't even think this is possible because religion does not teach it. Religion puts all the emphasis on sight - the bible teaching. Not on faith - the spirit teaching. Religion limits the spirit to the bible. Seems backward to me.
In light of everything I've explained, Christ on the Cross was addressing not all the Jews who had a hand in his death, but his statement was most likely limited to those Roman soldiers
"Most likely" is an interpretation. Can you see that? If you must interpret (which can be mistaken), then would you not rather err on the side of mercy, and of love, and of forgiveness to all? "Love covers over a multitude of sins".
I believe I did just that. (- showed where it is written that Christ and/or God cast the Jews off)
I'm sorry, but you did not. Paul, in fact, states just the opposite. He states it direct (without any sort of needing to interpret things or find their implication)... "God did not reject his people". Straight out of the bible. As shown in the above post written out from Romans Chapter Eleven.
I did not claim to know how all Israel will be saved. Only that Paul states it. That it is based on a promise - not works; certainly NOT the law. But on the grace and love and promise of God. And that Israel's relationship with God is between Israel and God, and not for me to judge.
Peace to you,
Tammy
AGuest

You are quite welcome, dear tec (the greatest of love and peace to you!). What many don't "get" is WHY "all Israel" will be saved: mercy. Grace. They don't get WHY Israel is shown mercy: it has NOTHING to do with Israel as a nation; rather, it is because of the faith in and love for God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David... resulting in the PROMISES made to THEM. Israel benefits because of the faith of THESE. As Paul stated:
"As far as the good news (gospel) is concerned, they are ENEMIES... for YOUR sake (so that the nations could be brought IN); but as far as ELECTION (being CHOSEN) is concerned, they are loved... ON ACCOUNT OF THE PATRIARCHS (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David)... for God's GIFTS (and it is a GIFT)... and His CALL (and choosing)... are IRREVOCABLE."
The Most Holy One of Israel made a PROMISE... to Abraham... that by means of HIS SEED, the nations would bless themselves. Israel was a chosen race, a holy nation, and they ALONE were supposed to become rulers over the earth. Due to their lack of FAITH, however, they lost that right... to be the SOLE nation to constitute that holy nation. As a result, those of the NATIONS who show themselves to be "Israel" on the INSIDE... are taken in to be a part of the nation... and kingship... and priesthood... and rulership... along WITH Israel.
You haven't been taught this truth, dear JD (peace to you!), because those who teach you don't KNOW it. Even though it's in the bible. If you learn to walk by FAITH, however, in the One who God SENT to "show" us these things... and in the spirit that God gives on his behalf... HOLY SPIRIT... rather than by sight (for instance, in what you READ... because your eyes may not see everything or worse, may miss some things)... then you will be led... BY THAT SPIRIT... "into ALL truth." That really is how it works, dear one.
Without holy spirit, we only see, hear, prophesy, know, discern, etc., "partially." Even WITH it, what WE can do, see, hear, know, etc., is partial. How much more partial... without it? It can make us MORE "complete", however, than we are without it. When the Master RETURNS, however, and grants those who belong to him "white robes"... spirit bodies... THEN... we, TOO, will be "complete." As he is, the One who is "Complete."
I hope this helps! May YOU be granted ears to hear... and get the sense of these things... if you truly wish it!
Peace to you!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
jonathan dough

"I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
You just proved my point, and obviously didn't read what I wrote. The Jewish remnant that is saved comes in through grace, just like you quoted, under the New Covenant, not under the Mosaic Law. That is the entire thrust of my argument, what the Bible teaches, and what Paul and the inspired of Hebrews wrote. The Old Covenant is done away with, Christ rejected those who attempt to be justificed under the Mosaic Law, and God did not reject his people if they come in under the New Covenant, saved by grace, through faith. Read it again, carefullly this time.
designs

In Judaism every Human is the master of his actions, Deut.30:19. Free to be good or evil. Concepts of 'salvation' 'grace' 'predestination' are in the words of Rabbi Maimonides - 'Do not listen to the fools..and the stupid..who say God decrees for man before he is born..' Freedom was the individuals volition.
tec

Jonathan, maybe you should just stop saying that God rejected His people?
Paul says, "By no means!"
And there is more than just a remnant - because Paul also says "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has e x perienced a hardening IN PART until the full number of the gentiles come in and so ALL ISRAEL will be saved."
Yes, I agree with you that it is not by adherence to the law that anyone is saved. That it is by faith; by grace; by mercy; by love... all of which God has the right to show to anyone he chooses.
Peace,
Tammy
AGuest

You just proved my point, and obviously didn't read what I wrote.
No, I read what you wrote, dear JD (again, peace to you!). Truly. All of it...
The Jewish remnant that is saved comes in through grace, just like you quoted, under the New Covenant, not under the Mosaic Law.
Ahhh, yes... see, it is YOU that didn't really what I posted... from Romans 11:
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
"I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches .
See there? If the nations benefit by Israel's transgression, how much MORE will they benefit if they (Israel) are FULLY included! If Christ, the "firstfruits" and "root" is holy... so are ALL of the branches. Therefore, if the "remnant" is holy, dear one, SO IS THE ENTIRE NATION.
That is the entire thrust of my argument, what the Bible teaches, and what Paul and the inspired of Hebrews wrote.
But your argument is inaccurate, dear one. Sorry.
The Old Covenant is done away with,
Yes...
Christ rejected those who attempt to be justificed under the Mosaic Law
He rejects their ATTEMPTS, dear one... not THEM. How do we KNOW this? Well, if holy spirit has not revealed it to you, then the Prophet Jeremiah might:
“For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house ofIsrael after those days,” is the utterance of JaHVeH. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.”
“And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, ‘K NOW JaHVeH!’ for they willall of themknow me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them,” is the utterance of JaHVeH. “For I shall forgive their error, and their sin I shall remember no more.”
" This is what JaHVeH, the Giver of the sun for light by day, the statutes of the moon and the stars for light by night, the One stirring up the sea that its waves may become boisterous, the One whose name is Jehovah of armies, has said: “‘If these regulations could be removed from before me,’ is the utterance of JaHVeH, ‘those who are the seed of Israel could likewise cease from proving to be a nation before me always.’”
"This is what JaHVeH has said: “‘IF the heavens up above could be measured and the foundations of the earth below could be searched out, I myself also could reject the entire seed of Israel on account of all that they have done,’ is the utterance of JaHVeH.”
and God did not reject his people if they come in under the New Covenant, saved by grace, through faith.
No, He WON'T reject Israel... because Israel WILL come into the New Covenant. NOT by THEIR doing... but by HIS: HIS grace and mercy! He WILL put His law IN them... WILL write His law on their hearts... and they WILL be His people. They WILL say "Blessed is he that comes in the name of JAH," because the WILL OF JAH will make it so. Why? Because the PROMISE... cannot be removed. The ONLY way that Israel can be rejected is if God's regulations (of the NEW Law) COULD be removed. They cannot. Or if the heavens COULD be measured and the foundations of the earth searched out. Only THEN could He reject the entire seed of Israel.
Now, you might think that this means He could reject some, but not reject ALL. That, too, is inaccurate. Because ALL have sinned. He will not, however, be so unrighteous so as to save SOME of them... and not ALL of them. They rejected Christ as their king... and as a result salvation came to the NATIONS; however, once the FULL number of the nations have come it... it turns back to the entire nation of Israel, dear one. All 12 tribes. Which is why NO MAN can number the "crowd" (who come out of EVERY nation... including Israel).
Read it again, carefullly this time.
I will. I would exhort you to do the same. And remember, Christ did not say that Jerusalem was abandoned to them UNLESS they said "Blessed is he that comes in the name of JAH," but UNTIL they said it. They will say it, dear one. The entire nation.
Again, I hope this helps... and bid you peace!
YOUR servant... as I am servant to ALL those of the Household of God... ISRAEL... and those who go with, and a slave of Christ,
SA
designs

tec, jonathan-
Can you imagine how silly this argument is to Jews. Adam did not bring in Original Sin, in Judaism Adam only did himself in. There is no need or want for Christian silliness.
Read the Apocalypse of Baruch where it sets out plainly- Jews deny that humans are naturally evil, which is the whole basis for Christianity.
jonathan dough

Why don't you show us where in the Bible? If it isn't mainstream, and preached by a fringe group, then it really is novel in light of orthodox teachings. Which religion teaches this?

I did, and Shelby typed it all out above (peace and love to you; thank you for that).

She typed out some verses, failed to cite them, and failed to analyze them properly.

As to the Spirit teaching:

John 14:26 "But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

John 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears and he will tell you what is yet to come."

But Tammy, you left out where the Bible says Jesus "opened their minds to understand the Scriptures." Luke 24:45. And "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 2 Timothy 3:16."." In times past there was no Scripture and of necessity God made direct contact, but you're applying an antiquated exception. One is to study the law, day and night. Psalm 1:2. It's the Gospel that is preached, and that is found in the New Testament.

You make it sound as though a Christian need never read the Bible at all, but that kind of mysticism is dangerous and opens the door for the devil to step in with misinformation when the truth is in black and white before us. Believers don't wait for the truth to drop out of the sky, but they should take "the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God." Eph. 6:17.

No, actually that is what the Bible is there for, to teach us. Of course we ask for understanding, but as it relates to Scripture if that is where the answer lies. I'd rather not wait for voices whispering in my head. You need something a bit more concrete than that, and we

have that already.
No, I believe you missed this.

A good chapter to read is Hebrews 11. (I hope that you read it... I could type it out if anyone would rather not look it up) But none of those people (Abraham, Enoch, Moses, Abel, Noah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Rahab, etc, etc) had scriptures telling them what to do or believe.

Those verses aren't meant as an instruction manual for those people. It wasn't instruction, but illustrated the degree of their faith as an example to us. You're mixing apples and oranges. You act as though the world doesn't need a Bible.

No scripture told Noah to build an arc, or told Abraham to leave his land, or told Moses to lead the people out of Egypt. Yet they did these things... and they are all commended for walking by their faith. Not by their SIGHT. They had no 'concrete' bible, and they were praised for their faith.

I'm not claiming that God doesn't communicate with his followers, but to base your entire concept of Bible truth on voices in your head is reaching and extremely dangerous. Had there been Scripture in those days I'm quite certain that those men and women of old would have consulted it. I'm not talking about your conscience helping you discern right from wrong, but relying on voices instead of the Bible is patently unscriptural today.

Paul did not recieve revelation through the scriptures either. He had the scriptures and they did nothing for him. He received revelation straight from Christ, the Truth.

Although he also consulted the pillars in Jerusalem and Peter for information on Christ. If there wasn't refelation to some people we wouldn't have a Bible. Paul, like older prophets, were conduits, which I hope you aren't claiming to be, and they most certainly did consult the Law. In the Christian Era with access to Scripture, faith is inseperable from Scripture. Otherwise you wouldn't even know about Jesus - in whom you are to have faith in.

We might not all have that, at least not yet. So we may have to rely on the bible (concrete/and by sight) for a time. But we should yearn for the Spirit to teach us, shouldn't we? We should have faith in that; ask for ears to hear and eyes to see?

Never apart from Scripture. You're walking down a dangerous road.

I think so. But I think so many don't even think this is possible because religion does not teach it. Religion puts all the emphasis on sight - the bible teaching. Not on faith - the spirit teaching. Religion limits the spirit to the bible. Seems backward to me.

Not meaning to insult, but you might consider reading more, listening to other preachers and ministers, etc. The radio is a good start. Christianity is faith-based. Too much, in my opinion in light of how people often never crack a Bible. They don't all put an emphasis on sight.

In light of everything I've explained, Christ on the Cross was addressing not all the Jews who had a hand in his death, but his statement was most likely limited to those Roman soldiers
"Most likely" is an interpretation. Can you see that?

All right, I'll change that. He definately was addressing only the ignorant Roman soldiers who nailed him to the cross. And my previous post certainly verifies that.

If you must interpret (which can be mistaken), then would you not rather err on the side of mercy, and of love, and of forgiveness to all? "Love covers over a multitude of sins".

Utter nonsense, and unbiblical. What religion do you belong to? Judgment Day is approaching.

I believe I did just that. (- showed where it is written that Christ and/or God cast the Jews off)

I'm sorry, but you did not. Paul, in fact, states just the opposite. He states it direct (without any sort of needing to interpret things or find their implication)... "God did not reject his people". Straight out of the bible. As shown in the above post written out from Romans Chapter Eleven.
Please go back and re-read my post because it either went over your head or you ignored it because you completely mischaracterized what I wrote. The Jewish remnant that is saved comes in through grace, just like you quoted, under the New Covenant, not under the Mosaic Law. That is the entire thrust of my argument, what the Bible teaches, and what Paul and the inspired writer of Hebrews wrote. The Old Covenant is done away with, Christ rejected those who attempt to be justificed under the Mosaic Law, and God did not reject his people if they come in under the New Covenant, saved by grace, through faith. Read it again, carefullly this time. Let's not get too snippy. We're basically on the same side.

I did not claim to know how all Israel will be saved. Only that Paul states it.

But that is a narrow reading that doesn't consider other relevant verses as I explained. "Believe and you will be saved" doesn't mean "only belief in Christ will save you eternally." Otherwise the devil and his demons will be saved as well. Context, and other verses apply.

That it is based on a promise - not works; certainly NOT the law. But on the grace and love and promise of God.

You just proved my point to yourself and the rest of us. If all are saved by works, the Jews can't gain eternal salvation under the Mosaic Law but only by grace, through faith, and not by works. Under the New Covenant only.
http://www.144000.110mb.com/directory/jehovahs_witnesses_beliefs_salvation.html
Jonathan, maybe you should just stop saying that God rejected His people?
Paul says, "By no means!"
And there is more than just a remnant - because Paul also says "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening IN PART until the full number of the gentiles come in and so ALL ISRAEL will be saved."
Yes, I agree with you that it is not by adherence to the law that anyone is saved. That it is by faith; by grace; by mercy; by love... all of which God has the right to show to anyone he chooses.
You're free to ignore the Bible and all the verses that apply. Your method of analysis is much like the JWs who read things too narrowly and out of context. Christ clearly rejected the old ways, and stomped the dust off his feet. As I said, all Israel does not mean every Jew who ever lived. Andif they come in, it is under the New Covenant, if they accept Christ. They cannot be saved by adherence to the Mosaic Law.
jgnat

Love and hate are both passions. To express either to a deity is a reconfirmation of its existence. A full athiest, I would think, would not care. If I break down this thread owner's rejection of God, it is for perceived wrongs:
...cannot have the best interests of man as his first priority...
...it's all about ego ...
...no matter how the human familty suffers...
...he hates pretty much everyone...
To flip these judgements, a god worth following would:
...have the best interests of man as his first priority...
...be egoless...
...intervenes in suffering...
...loves pretty much everyone...
For the most part, I think that God-loving people believe the green. If they apologize, it is to justify the evidence of our eyes where God seems to have remained silent, or to explain away difficult scriptures.
I suggest that God-loving people who believe the green, will model their lives on that God. Surely that can only be good for them and the world.
designs

Christians

Do you hate God

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