'No one comes to the Father except through me' see this shows what an ignorant fictional person this Jesus is. No one needed a Messiah like this Jesus brags of being to get close to God in Jewish thought. Everyone had a perfect right to connect to their Creator, Jew and Gentile, Torah for the Jew and the 7 Noahide Laws for the Gentiles, it was simple in their world view, everyone was taken care of.
Do you hate God
by Star tiger 225 Replies latest jw friends
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ShadesofGrey
Hey designs, honest question: Don't Jews believe in having a mediator? Don't Jews believe in having a preist?
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designs
Shades,
Not really although in Hasidism something like that can be found. Two ideas are previlent in Judaism about being Human- 1. We are created in the image of God therefore we are his children and have direct relationship with our Father. 2.Deut.30:19 'I set before you Life and Death' here again is a direct relationship. So the Christian idea of a Mediator is not there just like the idea of Original Sin is not in Judaism but you can see how those concepts could be extrapolated. As for a Priest, or Cohen, Kohanim plural, these had to have blood ties to Aaron and functioned to give Blessings and to weigh in on matters of Law, halakha, interpretation. Again you can see a connection to a Minister or Catholic Priest without taking it to far.
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tec
I'll get back to you when I get home from work too, Jonathan.
Peace,
Tammy
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factfinder
still thinking-
I agree with you. Religion creates differences and friction between people.
Tammy- I agree with you
AND....
Qcmbr- I agree with you too!
designs-
thank you for your interesting comments!
Jonathan-
Of course you have the right to believe in what you choose to.
My relatives were killed by "Christians" in the holocaust. I live in the United States where my parents, I and my siblings were born. My Grandparents came here from Europe to escape the pograms from Christians so don't tell me I don't know history.
I have read your post about the trinity. If that is how you wish to believe in God thats up to you. I don't believe that. So we both have our own opinions.
Please see still thinkings post- religion causes hatred. There is a disagreement here on this thread between you and me (and a few others) because you believe in a triune yhwh and my God is ONE, SINGULAR- . Therefore, you will not convince me to accept your triune YHWH and I have no interest in trying to convince you to leave your trinitarian beliefs.
We have gone off topic of this thread and while there are some interesting comments being made, I have no desire to continue discussing the trinity and our differences of belief.
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tec
You're wrong, Tammy, and need to study the NT closer because your version is novel, to say the least.
Well, it might not be mainstream, but it isn't novel. I mean, its even in the bible.
But more than studying closer... the better thing to do would be to ask for understanding, and let the spirit teach, yes? Even if you have to keep asking, and listening, until you hear an answer? Because you might be judging an entire people wrongly, otherwise.
They can go to him, but only through the New Testament New Covenant.
The "NT covenant" is simply faith in Christ, right? So that would require going to Him.
And"All Israel being Saved" refers to a) Christian spiritual Israel under the New Covenant, Jews and gentiles, and b) Jews in the future who come in under Christ, under the NC, and no other way.
If you read Paul's words, he seems quite convinced that ALL Israel will be saved. That Israel is hardened so that the full number of the gentiles can come in. All of Romans 11 takes this stance.
Personally, I prefer to leave Israel's relationship with God... between Israel and God. I do not have the right or ability to judge that. They have been God's chosen people since a promise made to Abraham, and the son of that promise.
He came down, preached, made the rounds, and was rejected, stomped the dust off his feet and nailed the Mosaic Law to the cross with his blood sacrifice.
Yes, He was rejected. He did not DO the rejecting, and at any time anyone (JEW or Gentile) can go to Him. Even Paul said outright that God did not reject his people.
The religious Jews who rejected him were not "forgiven" but nevertheless gained eternal salvation, as you appear to be claiming, and I would like to see in the Bible where you read this, if you would be so kind.
Forgiven for what they (those who handed him over, mocked him, tortured him, crucified him) did to Him... "Forgive them father, for they know not what they do.'
Can you show me where it is written that Christ and/or God cast the Jews off?
Peace,
Tammy
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jonathan dough
You're wrong, Tammy, and need to study the NT closer because your version is novel, to say the least.
Well, it might not be mainstream, but it isn't novel. I mean, its even in the bible.
Why don't you show us where in the Bible? If it isn't mainstream, and preached by a fringe group, then it really is novel in light of orthodox teachings. Which religion teaches this?
But more than studying closer... the better thing to do would be to ask for understanding, and let the spirit teach, yes? Even if you have to keep asking, and listening, until you hear an answer? Because you might be judging an entire people wrongly, otherwise
No, actually that is what the Bible is there for, to teach us. Of course we ask for understanding, but as it relates to Scripture if that is where the answer lies. I'd rather not wait for voices whispering in my head. You need something a bit more concrete than that, and we have that already.
They can go to him, but only through the New Testament New Covenant.
The "NT covenant" is simply faith in Christ, right? So that would require going to Him.
It's not quite that simple, and from what you just wrote you seem to agree with me. It's the new arrangement between YHWH and spiritual Israel, which can include fleshly Jews, but only as Christians. Jesus said the only way to the Father, YHWH, was through him. If they deny Christ and don't "go to him," then they can't be parties to the New Covenant or have access to the Father. You seem to be saying that all it takes to be under the New Covenant is faith in him, which is required, but it goes beyond a mere form of belief if you don't abide by Christ's commands. Jesus said "whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him." John 3:36. If you have faith then you do x, y, z. "... whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father." John 5:23.
I go into great detail on the New Covenant right here:
http://144000.110mb.com/144000/i-3.html#A
Belief alone, which is not the same as exercising faith, is not enough. If you read Hebrews carefully you'll see that Christ is the New Covenant, the Old Covenant is no more, and if you deny Christ, then you don't have faith and you can't be under the New Covenant, and that goes for the Jews, and anyone else for that matter. Furthermore, 2 Cor. 3:14 clearly states that Christ took away the Old Covenant. " ... through Christ it is taken away."
And "All Israel being Saved" refers to a) Christian spiritual Israel under the New Covenant, Jews and gentiles, and b) Jews in the future who come in under Christ, under the NC, and no other way.
If you read Paul's words, he seems quite convinced that ALL Israel will be saved. That Israel is hardened so that the full number of the gentiles can come in. All of Romans 11 takes this stance.
I have read Paul's words, but you can't read them in isolation, but in the context of what he also said elswhere, and what Christ said. Whereas all Israel will be saved, the standard by which they are saved is different now. In the Christian era, one cannot be saved by adhering to the Mosaic Law which is ineffective for attaining eternal salvation, especially since the Old Covenant is done away with. 2 Cor. 3:14. Their salvation is gained through Christ, only. Therefore, Paul's words at Romans 11 cannot mean that everyone who ever was a Jew will gain eternal salvation. It's not possible. And that is how Israel, the new spiritual Israel, is brought in. Hardened now, softened by accepting Christ Jesus later under the New Covenant. Nowhere in the NT does it state that all Jews gain eternal salvation by merely being fleshly Jews, especially if they are anti-Christ and deny Christ Jesus; especially if they lack faith.
Personally, I prefer to leave Israel's relationship with God... between Israel and God. I do not have the right or ability to judge that. They have been God's chosen people since a promise made to Abraham, and the son of that promise.
YHWH never promised Abraham that each of his descendants, regardless of their wickedness, would gain eternal salvation, especially if they denied the Christ. It is simply not in the Bible. Eternal salvation is impossible by adherence to the Old Testament Mosaic Law in the Christian era, and if Jews deny Jesus then they can't have faith in Jesus and Paul states clearly that by grace you are saved, through faith .. Eph. 2:9. Faith in Christ.
He came down, preached, made the rounds, and was rejected, stomped the dust off his feet and nailed the Mosaic Law to the cross with his blood sacrifice.
Yes, He was rejected. He did not DO the rejecting, and at any time anyone (JEW or Gentile) can go to Him. Even Paul said outright that God did not reject his people.
That's false, and you need to back that up with something. And you aren't reading what I wrote carefully. I never said Jews were prohibited from going to Him. I said the exact opposite. You're treating it as an all or nothing proposition, that God did not reject all OC Jews who ever lived. He did not, and will not, reject all Jews if they come to YHWH through Christ. God did not reject His people in the sense that he provided a different means of accessing Him. They have to reach out and approach through Christ like everyone else. Paul never wrote that those Jews who are anti-Christ, without faith, gain eternal salvation for their non-belief.
The rules of the game changed. And He did do the rejecting; it was one of the primary reasons for making the rounds in Israel. That is why he wept for Jerusalem. That is one of the reasons Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D. Jesus commissioned the 12 to go to the lost sheep of the tribe of Israel. John 10:6. "Whoever will not receive you or listen to your words - go outside that house or town and shake the dust from your feet. Amen, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town." John 10:14, 15. Jesus didn't believe that "all Israel will be saved" even if they rejected him and denied him.
And if you study all the woes against the Pharisees and Sadducees, all the admonitions, all of the statements of how much worse it will be for them on Judgment Day, how to be aware of the false teachings, the crystal clear explanations that the Old Covenant Christ nailed to the cross, and much more, you can't really claim that all of physical Israel in the Christian era will be saved under the Old Covenant. A remnant comes in, but only under the New Covenant, under Christ. You cannot be anti-Christ, deny Jesus is the savior and gain eternal salvation. It's impossible. Christ, as God the Son, the God-man, and YHWH as that is understood in mainstream thought, did in fact reject those who reject him, those who attempt to get to the Father some other way. Remember all the woes and admonitions. Jesus even said their Father was the devil.
The religious Jews who rejected him were not "forgiven" but nevertheless somehow gained eternal salvation, as you appear to be claiming, and I would like to see in the Bible where you read this, if you would be so kind.
Forgiven for what they (those who handed him over, mocked him, tortured him, crucified him) did to Him... "Forgive them father, for they know not what they do.'
In light of everything I've explained, Christ on the Cross was addressing not all the Jews who had a hand in his death, but his statement was most likely limited to those Roman soldiers who were carrying out the execution. Notice that he didn't say that all those would be with him in paradise, he didn't say that of the second revolutionary hanging on the third cross. Furthermore, His statement does not even appear in the oldest papyrus manuscript of Luke and in other early Greek manuscripts and ancient versions of wide geographical distribution. (NAB Luke 23:34 Note.) This one statement can't be used to overturn everything Christ did and said, and what the other writers, including Paul, wrote in this regard. It can't overturn the clear meaning and intent of the Bible in this regard.
Can you show me where it is written that Christ and/or God cast the Jews off?
I believe I did just that. By eliminating the Old Covenant and inititating the New, He cast off the Jewish religious form of worship and faith, and instituted a new form of worship and an eternal salvation plan good to the ages. All are welcome, but not if they are anti-Christ, not if they deny Christ. They must exercise faith as that is understood. When the previously non-believing Jews do come into Spiritual Israel, every knee of theirs will bend as they confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Or they don't get in. -
designs
Gentile Cult in all its Glory...
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Jeffro
Gotta love fan fiction
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AGuest
Why don't you show us where in the Bible?
I think dear tec (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!) mentioned Chapter 11 of Paul's letter to the Romans, dear JD (peace to you, as well). Perhaps you missed that, though, so I will quote it for you, below (from the NIV, because you seem to have some issue with the "version" that dear tec may have used - though, I don't know how that can be as she neither quoted the verses nor posted a version, but...):
"I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
"What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day. And David says: “May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them. May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever.”
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles,how much greater riches willtheir full inclusionbring!
"I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this wayall Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may nowreceive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
What does all of this mean? My Lord did not say that Israel's house was abandoned to it UNLESS they said, "Blessed is he that comes in the name of JAH." He said it was abandoned to them... UNTIL they so said. Meaning, they WILL give the blessing, honor, and glory to the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH, who their ancestors rejected. Do we have an example of this? We do: the brothers of Joseph. Who not only rejected HIM... but would have killed him had it not been for one brother... JUDAH. Because of Judah's action, Joseph's life was spared. Because of HIS (Joseph's) love... for HIS FATHER... and his brother, Benjamin (who becamse Judah, also)... all of his brothers... AND THEIR HOUSEHOLDS... were shown mercy.
Same thing: because of my Lord's LOVE... for HIS Father... and for his brothers that ARE faithful, that love HIM... ALL of Israel will be saved. But NOT before they say "bless is he than comes in the name of JAH." Many would argue to the hilt that this will never be said by the nation. It will be. By ALL in that nation. And when they do, the heart of the Most Holy One of Israel will turn BACK to them. What prompts that utterance? When Israel is saved from her enemies... one last time.
If it isn't mainstream, and preached by a fringe group, then it really is novel in light of orthodox teachings.
Well, it's as "mainstream" as the Bible...
Which religion teaches this?
That's the problem: most don't. Even though it's right there in the Bible. At least one full chapter dedicated to it. Curious, that, isn't it?
I hope that helps, dear JD, truly. Please keep in mind that just because YOU haven't heard of a situation that is in the Bible... because those who you listen to haven't told you of it... does not mean it isn't in the Bible.
Again, peace to you!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA