It's clear from the Scriptures that "the sons of God" who came down to mate with women are from heaven.
Is the Holy Spirit God Himself or a force like in Star Wars?
by I_love_Jeff 224 Replies latest jw friends
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Qcmbr
Just to point out I do not believe anything I posted here. Just in case anyone thinks I turned. :)
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jonathan dough
I'm afraid you lost me here!!! There are only two persons, Christ, the Word, and his Father, Yahweh. The Active Force is spirit energy. When Yahweh made the Word, he was door hinged onto himself and then afterwards Christ created the Universe using his Father's energy.
Out of everything you've written you have failed to cite one single verse of scripture in support of your novel theories in response to what I've written. You're just babbling, plucking it out of thin air or repeating what someone else told you to say. You also failed to respond to any of the material provided above, and I'd bet you didn't even bother to read it because you made up your mind a long time ago. You also lack a fundamental understanding of the trinity doctrine because there are three, not two, persons, YHWH did not make the Word - the evidence is overwhelming, and the Spirit is not exclusively God's "energy" Christ is the Spirit. I suggest you get a more accurate copy of the Bible beside the NWT.You fail to understand what "person" means in the trinitarian context.
The three spiritual Persons or hypostases of the triune God are not to be confused with material human beings, persons like you or I. [ Top ]
The Jehovah’s Witnesses erroneously think of “Person” as an individual self-conscious human person (Encyclopedia of Religion, 57), and we humans don’t engage in the kind of conduct the three Persons of the Trinity do, such as inner dialogue where people combined within a human person speak to each other. Or, they argue that the Holy Spirit cannot be a person because it appeared as a dove or flames of fire, never in the form of a human. And, it seems irrational to them that one such person can inhabit another person, so the Holy Person cannot be a person (Should You Believe, Chapter 6). They write:
On one occasion the holy spirit appeared as a dove. On another occasion it appeared as tongues of fire - never as a person. (Should You Believe, Chapter 8).
[R]egarding Samson, Judges 14:6 relates: “The spirit of Yahweh seized on him and though he had no weapon in his hand he tore the lion in pieces.” (JB) Did a divine person actually enter or seize Samson, manipulating his body to do what he did? No, it was really “the power of the LORD [that] made Samson strong. (TEV) (Should You Believe, Chapter 6) (emphasis added).
A comparison of Bible texts that refer to the holy spirit shows that it is spoken of as ‘filling’ people; they can be ‘baptized’ with it; and they can be “anointed” with it … None of these expressions would be appropriate if the holy spirit were a person. (Reasoning from the Scriptures [New York, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1985], 380) (Reasoning)
First, the Jehovah's Witnesses fail to recognize that we are dealing with spirit, not flesh (the Holy Spirit is, after all, spirit), and the Bible is replete with examples of spirit persons entering individuals such as the spirit person Satan who entered Judas (Luke 22:3), and spirit demons who routinely inhabit people (Matthew 8:29-31). Furthermore, Jehovah is a spirit person and is the Holy Spirit who dwells in the Christian believer (2 Corinthians 3:17, 18 NWT), as does Christ (Romans 8:9-11; see also John 4:24). The Jehovah’s Witnesses’ objections in this regard are groundless.
And simply because the Holy Spirit took the form of a dove or tongues of fire and not a human person does not mean He is not a spirit person. After all, the Almighty is a spirit person though invisible (Colossians 1:15). Angels are spirit persons who took human form, but their mere appearance as humans does not mean they are angels, or that angels who never took human form are not spirit (Genesis 18).
Second, “Person” should be regarded as a contemporary misnomer, an imperfect expression because it connotes a separate rational and moral individual. It is a word erroneously derived from the Latin persona and misapplied in the English modern era, as the Jehovah's Witnesses have done.
Persona: A Latin word regularly used to refer to the three ‘persons’ of the Trinity and to the one ‘person’ of Christ. It therefore fulfills the role in Latin theology performed by hypostasis in Greek. The natural translation into ‘person’ in English is misleading. Persona originally meant a ‘mask’ and then a ‘role.’ It is used to indicate an individual in his or her external presentation, and does not convey the idea of self-consciousness or the internal psychological content suggested by the English word ‘person’ with its close link to the word ‘personality.’ (Oxford, 1210)
Third, as mentioned above, the hypostatic “Person” refers to a form in which the divine essence exists, not a created human, but three personal self-distinctions (The New Bible Dictionary [Grand Rapids, Michigan, W. M. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1962], 1300) (New Bible Dictionary).
In most formularies the doctrine is stated by saying that God is one in His essential being, but that in this being there are three Persons, yet so as not to form separate and distinct individuals. They are three modes or forms in which the divine essence exists. ‘Person’ is, however, an imperfect expression of the truth in as much as the term denotes to us a separate rational and moral individual. But in the being of God there are not three individuals, but only three personal self-distinctions within the one divine essence. (New Bible Dictionary, 1299, 1300)
Fourth, while each Person is self-conscious, He never acts independently.
[P]ersonality in man implies independence of will, actions, and feelings, leading to behavior peculiar to the person. This cannot be thought of in connection with the Trinity; each Person is self-conscious and self-directing, yet never acting independently or in opposition. (ibid.)
Fifth, The Jehovah’s Witnesses argue,“ Thousands of times throughout the Bible, God is spoken of as one person. When he speaks, it is as one undivided individual…. Why would all the God-inspired Bible writers speak of God as one person if he were actually three persons? … What purpose would that serve except to mislead people?” (Should You Believe, Chapter 6).
This line of argument illustrates their confusion. The triune God is not split into three. He is one undivided individual as just mentioned. His diversity manifests itself in operations and characteristics:
When we say that God is a unity we mean that though God is in Himself a threefold centre of life, His life is not split into three. He is one in essence, in personality, and in will. When we say that God is a Trinity in unity we mean that there is unity in diversity, and that diversity manifests itself in Persons, in characteristics, and in operations. (New Bible Dictionary, 1299, 1300)
We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity,” (Catholic Catechism, 75). “[T]he Godhead of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.” Athanasian Creed; DS 75; ND16)” (Catholic Catechism, 79).
Sixth, there is subordination of relation and order among the three Persons, but not in nature:
Moreover, the subsistence and operations of the three Persons are marked by a certain order involving a certain subordination in relation, though not in nature. The Father as the fount of deity is First: He is said to originate. The Son, eternally begotten of the Father, is Second: he is said to reveal. The Spirit, eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son, is Third: He is said to execute.
While this does not suggest priority in time or in dignity, since all three Persons are divine and eternal, it does suggest an order of precedence in operation and revelation. Thus we can say that creation is from the Father, through the Son, by the Holy Spirit. (New Bible Dictionary, 1299, 1300)
Seventh, the three Persons are permanent features of God’s three distinct manners of His activity:
Trinitarian theology is par excellence the theology of relationship. Its fundamental principle is that God, who is self-communication and self-giving love for us, is from all eternity love perfectly given and received. The traditional formula “God is three persons in one nature” compactly expresses that there are permanent features of God’s eternal being (the three persons) that are the ontological precondition for the three distinct manners of God’s tripersonal activity in the world (as Father, Son and Spirit). (Encyclopedia of Religion, 55)
Eighth, each Person has the divine nature, but each has it differently:
Whatever is other, distinct, plural, personal, and proper in the Godhead is exclusively a matter of relationship. Father, Son and Spirit do not differ as God, but in the way each is God with respect to the others. Each has and is the divine nature, but each has it differently: the Father from Himself, the Son from the Father, the Spirit from both the Father and the Son. God, then, is one in substance, three in Person, and what is significant about this distinction, what makes it non-contradictory, is that what is personal in the Godhead is not something absolute, but something purely relative, (Council of Florence, 1442). (Catholic Encyclopedia, 303)
Ninth, the doctrine also holds that the divine Persons exist in their relationships to one another:
The three divine Persons exist in their particular, unique natures as Father, Son and Spirit in their relationships to one another, and are determined through these relationships. It is in these relationships that they are Persons. Being a person in this respect means existing-in-relationship. (Trinity and the Kingdom, 172)
[T]he three divine Persons possess the same individual, indivisible and one divine nature, but they possess it in varying ways. The Father possesses it of himself; the Son and the Spirit have it from the Father (ibid., 172). The Trinitarian Persons subsist in the common divine nature; they exist in their relations to one another. (ibid., 173)
“A divine Person is a non-interchangeable existence of the divine nature.” By the word ‘existence’ - existential - [he] meant: existence, in the light of another” (ibid., 173).
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jonathan dough
The Active Force is spirit energy.
Not exclusively if you read the Bible. It's both a power and a person, as that term is understood in trinitarian thought.
In the New Testament, however, the Spirit of God is both a power and a Person (ibid., 575). The Jehovah's Witnesses regard the supporting verses as mutually exclusive - the Spirit must be either a power or a person, and since it can’t be a person it must be a power. However, Scripture read together cannot accept one meaning at the expense of another, so, as indicated in Strong and Vine’s the power is the “Power of the Holy Spirit” (at 162), which is the Spirit of God (Romans 9:8-11 RSV), and Jehovah (or Lord RSV) is the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17 NWT). The Holy Spirit is not simply an inert unthinking electrical current flowing from Jehovah God. It is a powerful spirit Person.
“The revelation that the Spirit of God is a Person is gradual” (Catholic Encyclopedia, 575). The majority of NT texts reveal God’s spirit as something, not someone… (ibid.), but “in the Synoptic Gospels [the Trinitarian formula in Mt. 28.19] clearly speaks of the person of the Holy Spirit.” So even though in most cases “the phrase ‘spirit of God’ reflects the OT notion of “the power of God,” as a result of the teaching of Christ, the definite personality of the Third Person of the Trinity is clear” (ibid.).
In the Acts of the Apostles the Spirit’s personality is not overtly demonstrated in the texts although “[t]he statement in Acts 15.28, “the Holy Spirit and we have decided,” alone seems to imply full personality” (ibid., 575). Paul uses the [Greek word for spirit] 146 times. Sometimes it means man’s natural spirit, but more often it signifies the divine sanctifying power (2 Cor 3.17-18; Gal 4.6; Phil 1.19). However, the Trinitarian formulas employed by St. Paul (e.g., 2 Cor 13.13), indicate a real personality” (ibid., 575).
The personality of the Holy Spirit is very obvious in the theology of the apostle John and is “very rich in meaning” (ibid.).
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth (Jn 14.17; 15.26; 16.13; cf. 1 Jn 4.6; 5.6), and “another helper,” the “paraclete” (Jn 14.16). The Spirit is “another” helper because, after Christ’s Ascension, he takes Christ’s place in assisting the disciples, in teaching them all that Jesus himself had not yet told them, in revealing the future to them, in recalling to their minds that which Jesus had taught them, in giving testimony concerning Jesus, and in glorifying Him (14.26; 16.12-16; 15.26; 1 Jn 2.27; 5.6). (Catholic Encyclopedia, 575)
The New Testament contains many additional references to attributes of the Holy Spirit that indicate personality such as “speaking, hindering, desiring [or] dwelling (Acts 8.29; 16.7; Rom 8.9)” (ibid., 575). Granted, taken in and of themselves one should not automatically identify them as personality traits because “the same expressions are used in regard to rhetorically personified things or abstract ideas (see Rom 8.6; 7.17).” However, in light of the above verses that clearly identify the Holy Spirit as a Person, other activities of a personal nature reinforce the fact that the Holy Spirit is a Person, not an impersonal “it” - and most certainly not an electrical current, or a mere “figure of speech.”
Thus, the Person of the Holy Spirit speaks (Acts 28:25), teaches (John 15:26), strives with sinners (Genesis 6:3), comforts (Acts 9:31), helps our infirmities (Rom 8:26), is grieved (Eph 4:30) and is resisted (Acts 7:51) (Strong and Vine’s, 95, Supplement).
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designs
Let's call him Fred, its more personal
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truthseeker
Johnathan,
I did read what you had to say and the scriptures.
My scriptual response (if you bothered to read it) is here...
I find the concept of the Trinity unworkable. How could God have miraculously and mysteriously walked the earth as Christ? Those that believe that way, they are required to do so without questioning the validity of the "mystery."
When the Bible says that they are one it means they are one in unity not trinity, otherwise this is robbing Christ of the true glory due to him because he did not have to do what he did for us! It was a decision Jesus made with his own free will that he lowered himself for a time and came to earth as Jesus Christ and later voluntarily die for our sins.
Jesus is the mediator, as pointed out at 1 Timothy 2:5-6: "For there is one God and one mediator between God and man, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself—a ransom for all, a testimony at the proper time." Also Jesus can not be greater than himself if he is God.
John 14:28: "You have heard Me tell you, 'I am going away and I am coming to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I." Is he going to ascend to himself? In heaven Jesus is still subject to his Father: Matthew 20:23 "He told them, "You will indeed drink My cup. But to sit at my right and left is not mine to give; instead, it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by My Father."
John 13:16 " I assure you: A slave is not greater than his master, and a messenger is not greater than the one who sent him." Jesus was saying he is not greater than his Father. John 8:42 "Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, because I came from God and I am here. For I didn't come on My own, but He sent Me." Jesus did not come on his own - His Father sent him. If Jesus was God, he would have come on his own, because he could not send himself. John 10:30 "The Father and I are one."
And at John 17:20-22 he further explained: "I pray not only for these, but also for those who believe in Me through their message. May they all be one, as You, Father, are in Me and I am in You. May they also be one in Us, so the world may believe You sent Me. I have given them the glory You have given Me. May they be one as We are one."
According to Trinitarians, this would mean we are also God, because Christ said at John 17:20-22: "May they all be one, as You, Father, are in Me and I am in You. May they also be one in us...I have given them the glory You have given Me." Being a sharer in that given glory does not make us Christ, anymore than the Trinitarians can make Christ equal to God.
As the Word, Christ had a beginning as pointed out in Proverbs as being the master craftsman. Yet, God had no beginning. He has always existed. On the other hand, the Word was the beginning of God's creation. Consider 1 Peter 3:22 "Now that He has gone into heaven, He is at God's right hand, with angels, authorities, and powers subjected to Him." Note that Jesus is not sitting at his father's throne, he is as his "right hand". Philippians 2:9 "For this reason God also highly exalted Him and gave Him the name that is above every name," If he was God, he would already have been exalted, and he would not need a name that was above every name but Yahweh's.
John 20:17 "Don't cling to Me," Jesus told her, "for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to My brothers and tell them that I am ascending to My Father and your Father—to My God and your God." He said "My Father and your Father—to My God " If he is GOD, why say that he had a God, if he was indeed God Almighty himself? And, why would he have to ascend to himself? It is ridiculous for anyone to even try to argue that Yahweh and Christ are the same spirit.
Mark 15:34 "And at three Jesus cried out with a loud voice, " Eloi, Eloi, lemá sabachtháni?" which is translated, " My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" I guess those who believe in the Trinity think Jesus must have forsaken himself.
1 Corinthians 8:6 "yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ through whom are all things, and we through Him."
The Bible does not say that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are equal, coeternal or one single God. Matthew 28:19: "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." This simply shows they are in unity with each other, not that they are all one in the same.
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Jeffro
Just like 'the Force' in Star Wars, the Holy Spirit is also fictitious. Within the biblical narrative, it seems to be given some personal attributes, but many of the interpretations are just fan fiction. It's not real, so it doesn't matter too much.
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truthseeker
Johnathan,
The Holy Spirit or Active Force is an extension of God, it is not an individual entity in its own right.
John 16:12-13 "I still have many things to tell you, but you can't bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak whatever He hears. He will also declare to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, because He will take from what is Mine and declare it to you."
The Comforter or Spirit of truth) that Jesus was speaking of at that time was God's Active Force. When Jesus said, "For He will not speak on His own" he was referring to the fact that the Active Force always works in conjunction with God's will, for the Active Force is an extension of God's.
"For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak whatever He hears."
Jesus revealed that his Father's Active Force is always in union with the Father
When we think of an extension of our bodies, we think of legs, arms, fingers, toes, etc. God is a spirit, and his Active Force is alive, and can be in many places at one time.
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Jeffro
I think of the Holy Spirit as a "field" of some sort. An energy interface God has with our brains allowing him to "see and feel" through us therefore allowing him to know "the number of hairs on our head."
This is a great example of 'Holy Spirit fan fiction'. Notice how this 'electromagnetic field' is still given capital letters?
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truthseeker
You might ponder this: Nothing notable occurs unless two things are united.
When God was alone within himself, things remained status quo.
When God became active and created His ownly Son, something notable happened. God was no longer alone and the person He created in his image possessed his attributes. A union was formed. God, the Son and God's Active Force. This formed the triad, but it began with Jesus, the first intelligent creation in existence.
Since God's Holy Spirit is an extension of him, much like the arms and legs of a human, it can be said that one thing exists.
At the creation of Jesus, two things became united and God's Active Force is viewed as the third in the union, because it is through this Active Force that Michael came to be, thus forming the union of three.