Hi AGuest, Thank you for your reply which I read with interest.
You are quite welcome, dear one... and I am glad there was some interest on your behalf!
I've included the portions you have commented on otherwise quoting the entire post would take up many pages!!!
Yes, of course!
OK, I see, you are using a metaphor because there is no human equivalent for what you are saying here, though you are using the word "wives" in terms of the relationship between God and the spirit/fleshly realm.
The only HUMAN equivalent would have been Mary, the human mother of our Lord. She was merely a surrogate, however, for Jerusalem Above. The Most Holy One of Israel is a SPIRIT and so His "wives" cannot be human, dear one. That would be tantamount to what the Nephilim engaged in, would it not? How, then, could THEY be condemned, if the Most Holy One of Israel did the same thing (took a wife from among the daughters of men)?
Yes, life is a gift so I stand to be corrected there.
No worries!
I think we differ on the purpose of human life. Scriptures indicate that the Word had joy in the creation of man.
Yes, he did... but his joy in the CREATION of man does not explain the PURPOSE of that creation. Paul explained it, though, at Ephesians 1:8-12... which he spoke of the foreordination of those who would constitute an "administration" set up by God. It is the seed of the Woman that was so foreordained... to be an "administration" to God, through Christ, Christ being the head and lead kind of that administration. Since such administration is to be made up of God's HEIRS... such heirs had to be protected from their enemies in the spirit realm so that they could be BORN... as spirit beings. This birth occurs by means of God's holy spirit (semen) "joining" with the seed of the Woman. In this way, they are "fertilized" so as to be born... AGAIN (they were born first, in the flesh; next, it will be in the SPIRIT). Genesis 3:15; Revelation 12:17
To keep with His original creation of man through Adam, and not keep trying to find an alternate human line that would obey Him
There was to be no alternate human line, dear one. Again, Adham held the seed in HIM. That seed was then in EVE... WHO CAME OUT OF ADHAM (and so, the seed was in HIM, first!). She, then, had to become the mother... "of everyone LIVING." As with Mary for Christ, Eve was the SURROGATE for the Woman (Jerusalem Above). The Most Holy One of Israel is the GOD... and Father... of the LIVING. Not of the dead. Eve, then, became the (surrogate) mother of that seed (of the Woman)... the LIVING.
It has been said that God could have kept creating different lines of humans in an attempt to find a pair which upheld his laws, but as you said, there never would have been an alternate human line.
Yes. I am glad you understand this, truly! Whoever "said" there could have been alternative lines of humans hadn't a clue what they were talking about!
Ultimately, God could have destroyed the human race by wiping out Adam and Eve, but as I mentioned above, the Word, Christ Jesus, found joy in the creation of mankind, despite our imperfections. God would not let Satan thwart his will for the human race, but he would not go through hundreds of human pairs to make it happen.
Again, dear one... the Most Holy One of Israel did not destroy Adham and Eve because these held the Woman's seed IN them! He would have destroyed that seed as well... and THAT could NOT occur! Why HIDE the seed... only to destroy it because two inexperienced yahoos made a mistake??
Adam's line is under a covenant with Yahweh though the Bible doesn't implicity state that.
Okay... but I have heard different: if Adham's line was under a covenant... then what occurred with Cain and Abel would not have. One would not have, COULD not have, killed the other... and not been killed himself. Yet, Cain was not only shown mercy... but protected. Adham's line, however, did not continue through Cain (and it couldn't through Abel, who was the FIRST faithful witness!)... but had to now go through Seth. Seth, however, was NOT made in God's image... but, like US, in Adham's (Genesis 5:3). Problem is, SOME of Adham's descendant's (starting with Cain), have shown themselves NOT to be sons of God... but "sons" of the Adversary. Yet, Cain was of Adham's line...
The Devils' demons materizlied before the flood, took on flesh and became human but it did not come under the covenant because it was not of the Adamic line of descent. This doomed the fallen angels, the fathers of the Nephilim. For the children of these fallen angels it was like being born out of wedlock and not knowing who their father was. They were an outcast in God's eyes, something he felt should never have happened in creation.
Okay, a couple things here: first, the children of the fallen angels weren't the "Nephilim." The angels THEMSELVES were the Nephilim. THEY, the Nephilim... "were in the earth." THEY, the Nephilim, took wives from among the daughters of men... and procreated a mutant race, called "Fellers." The Nephilim, however, were NOT Satan's demons. They were merely angels who, after being assigned to the physical realm to help PROTECT and look after man... became enamored with human women.
Second, we KNOW they weren't Satan's angels because... they were already confined and restricted from entering back into the spirit realm... when Satan and HIS angels were hurled OUT of the spirit realm (heaven). The common mistake that MANY make is that these, the angels who sinned in the time of the Flood... those demons who possessed people after, say, even until the day our Lord was in the flesh, and Satan's angels... are all the same. They are NOT. They are three (3) DIFFERENT sets of spirit beings: the Nephilim, the demons, and Satan's angels.
The first two not only knew who God and Christ were, but did not deny or cross them! Do you not recall the demons acquiescing to our Lord when he accosted them? That they feared him and his future abyssing of them? Yet, Satan's angels actually BATTLED against him, when they fought against Michael and HIS angels. And unlike the Nephilim (who were confined by the waters of the flood), and Legion (who were confined by the waters after the swine they were in ran off the cliff)... Satan and HIS angels were hurled down... to the EARTH! No confinement for them! Indeed, Satan is not even abyssed... until our Lord returns again! Revelation 20:1, 2 And even so, he is released again! Revelation 20:7
The fallen angels who materialized human flesh, they were also outcasts.
No, dear one... they were sent here. As was Satan. But by choosing to take on flesh and procreate with human women... rather than continue to "dwell" in the SPIRIT bodies they had so that they could go BACK into the spirit realm (as spirit beings did/do - go in and out between the two)... they FORSOOK that dwelling (spirit bodies and the spirit realm)... the "proper" dwelling place for them... for physical bodies and the physical realm.
God did not want them as humans, if he had, he would have given them that right, but in God's eyes they lowered themselves in rank to become less than what they were.
This is true. BUT... He didn't kill or confine them for it! It wasn't until their CHILDREN began wreaking havoc in the earth that something was done. Those children, part spirit/part human... not only devastated humans... but took their mutant yearnings even to profane beasts! They could not control their appetites of ANY sort.
If God wanted them dead, he would have not allowed them to decouple their spirit from flesh, thus they would have drowned at the Flood but her chose to keep them around so they could continue their testing of humans.
Spirits don't drown, dear one. Water merely confines them, not drowns them. They did decouple... and so the fleshly bodies they'd
put on died, yes. But not their spirits (which is how Christ went and PREACHED to them!). The purpose OF the flood was to confine them... UNTIL such time as they can be destroyed. Why did ALL life have to die (excl. Noah, at al.)? Because spirit beings can occupy ANY living thing: human, animal, and plant. So, although they may have left their human bodies, they could still occupy... and "hide" in... animals and plants. AND eventually procreate... AGAIN... with the daughters of Noah's descendants, animals descending from those on the ark, plants that grew once the water resided. And make more, even more powerful mutant offspring! So ANY vessel that could potentially hold them... had to be destroyed! This was the ONLY way to rout them out!
The human line comes from that single man and woman. To keep his will in line for what he originally wanted, God sought to do it through the first human couple. If he had killed them immediately, none of us would be here but that was not God's will.
Okay, yes. But it wasn't all of "us" that was of interest: it was the seed of the Woman (1 John 3:9, 10)
I accept that, God did not kill them directly, but the implication was Adam and Eve would die if they ate of the fruit.
Yes, but not at HIS hand. Their death was due to the properties of the tree. One tree granted life... the other death. Eat from the one... and continue to live. Eat from the other... and die. Simple. Nothing more to it than that. Obey me, listen to me, because I LOVE you... and you won't do anything that will cause you harm, cause you to die. Ignore/disobey me... and you might do something that can result in your death.
He wanted mankind to survive, therefore, God did not want to keep testing different lines of humans.
Dear one, if He chose to keep testing 'different' lines of humans... they STILL would have been earthling man. Mankind. And STILL could have survived. He could very well have done away with Adham and Eve... and created a NEW Adham and Eve. He didn't, though, because to kill/destroy Adham/Eve... would have killed/destroyed the SEED they carried.
I want to clarify I was not suggesting that we're paying for their sins, they paid for theirs already. We must pay for ours and seek forgiveness.
This isn't quite accurate, either, dear one. They did not pay for their sins, dear one - NO ONE can pay for his/her own sins... because NO ONE'S blood can ATONE for his/her sins. Only Christ's blood can PAY for our sins... and Adham/Eve's. Rather, they RECEIVED the payment OF sin: death. Their sins... PAID them! With death! If one's death pays for one's sins... then there is no use for CHRIST... or Christ's blood. We can all just simply die... and the "debt" is PAID. And if the debt is PAID... then we should thereafter get LIFE.
But that is not how it occurs; rather, that is another false teaching of the WTBTS. We receive sin's "wage"... death. In order for us to live AGAIN... we have to be repurchased... paid FOR. By blood. That is where the blood of Christ comes in. HIS blood paid for our sins, those of us who put faith in it... and in him. Because of this, HIS "payment" for our sins with HIS blood... we come in line for the GIFT of life... from God. Romans 6:23; Hebrew 9:22
This is where I must disagree. Death is a state of inactivity whereby the life force of a spirit or individual ceases to exist.
Then I must ask you, again, how the spirit of a dead one can "haunt" a crime scene? How, for example, was Samuel's spirit raised up by the woman of Endor... if it ceased to exist when he died? Death IS a state of inactivity, dear one; however, it is inactivity due to SLEEP... not due to cessation of existence.
OK. I agree that the force or spirit of an individual can only die if it is destroyed or turned off.
(Smile) I am glad you got that! LOLOLOL! But note: it is only turned off... when it is destroyed. And it is only destroyed... by fire. And it must be fire SO intense... it kills the body AND the spirit. Which is why the angels that sinned have not been destroyed, yet. WHEN the destruction takes places... at Har-Mageddon... it will be SO consuming, that it will destroy ALL of those in its path. Or those who are hurled into it. Revelation 20:9, 10, 14, 15 Until then, they are reserved in "Tartarus" (the pit of the abyss), the sea, or Sheol/Hades. 2 Peter 2:4; Revelation 20:13
We live in a mortal human container and are limited by our fleshly vessel. At death, the spirit, or chord, is severed and Christ transforms us to a spirit creature. Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Yes, remember your Creator now while you are young, before the silver cord of life snaps and the golden bowl is broken. Don't wait until the water jar is smashed at the spring and the pulley is broken at the well."
SOME of us, yes. Some of us, no. We all live in such containers... vessels... yes. Some, however, are NEVER connected to God. Once Adham and Eve were separated (by the garments/vessels they were given)... their offspring were, too. It was upon those of that offspring who are the seed of the Woman... to make their way BACK... by getting back into the "ark" (which they due through the covenant). They MAKE their way back by means of holy spirit... which is what connects them to God... brings them into UNION with Him, through Christ.
You mentioned if the life force ceases to exist, what can be resurrected. I submit that if there is a physical resurrection, those who are asleep will be resurrected into a new body, that looked like their former self, while God in effect downloads our consciousness into that body, but this is my speculation.
You are very close here: some will be resurrected into a body (not a new one, but the old one - Ezekiel 37:1-14; Romans 8:11). Others WILL be resurrected into a new body, but not one of flesh - a SPIRIT body. The "clean outer garment" or "WHITE robe" (a body that does not have sin and death IN it, but is INcorruptible - 1 Corinthians 15:42-49). Some won't even die before being given a spirit body - 1 Corinthians 15:50-55
If God decrees that a spirit should no longer exist, that spirit is exited from God's mind where nothing can live.
I am not sure where you're getting this understanding. God's mind holds the memory of ALL: the righteous AND the unrighteous. That is how there will be a resurrection OF the righteous... AND the unrighteous. He even knows every spirit in the pit.
You said that when we die we simply are asleep, but then you said "How did Christ go and PREACH to the spirits of those who had died." - so which is it, do we die and go to sleep or do some die and others live in a hereafter?
When we die, we go to sleep; however... we CAN be awoken, even in Sheol, even under the altar - Revelation 6:9-11; 1 Samuel 28:15
Death can be a person if you want to look at it in the sense of someone who is commissioned to carry out an execution or in the case above, the angel of death destroyed Egypt's firstborn before the Exodus. So yes, I agree only on this principle.
Excellent! Glad you got that - LOLOL!
I don't know if you're using an allegory here.
I am not - Revelation 9:1, 11; 1 Corinthians 10:10; Hebrews 11:28;
Agreed, but I will say that on the day they ate from the tree, they began to die, not just physically, but spiritually.
Yes!
in God's mind, Adam and Eve did die in the day God said they would.
Another WTBTS teaching, dear one; in His mind they are not dead... yet. Again, there will be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. We don't know if Adham/Eve repented... accepted Christ... etc. So we CANNOT say that they are dead in His mind.
Some of the fallen angels did want to live on Earth as humans. And like all humans, they were naturally curious when it came to the act of love, which is probably what Satan tempted them with. Also do not forget that they would have bonded with their hybrid children giving them even less reason to go back to their proper abode in heaven.
I don't disagree with this, other than to say that (1) they weren't fallen AT FIRST, not until they "forsook" their proper dwelling place, which did not occur until AFTER they took women and had children; and (2) Satan didn't tempt them - they chose their lot. The only one tempted up to this point was Eve. Even Adham chose his lot.
During the years before the Flood, numerous attempts were made to gain entry to the sacred garden and procure the fruit. It can be assumed that many died in the course of doing this, including the hybrid children. Because of the flaming sword, it was impossible for any of the fallen angels to get in the garden to retrieve fruit for their wives, although it should be noted the fruit would only have benefited thier wives and not their Nephilim children.
I have not heard this, but I don't dispute it (at this time). I mean, sounds plausible. I do have to ask, however, why Cain wouldn't have tried, given his... ummmm... demeanor. Perhaps he did - I have not heard as to that, either.
Yes, when we die, I believe our spirit, our essence survives the death of our human vessel and passes over to the other side. You're confusing spirit with the fleshly vessel. You may have heard it said that when someone is drowning or is close to death, their life passes before their eyes, this may have a physical explanation, that their memories are being pulled out of their brain and into their new spiritual body after they have died a mortal death. Consider the many scriptures that allude to life after death. Why would Jesus tell his disciples not to be afraid of those who kill the body but rather fear him who can destroy both "soul" and body. Those who pass over are changed in a twinkling of an eye.
Our Lord said this because killing the body is temporary; however, destroying the spirit (and the body) is permanent. There is a resurrection from the first; there is NO resurrection from the second. As for the changing in the a twinkling of an eye, that isn't for all. When Christ returns, he will raise up those who belong to him but have died, AT THE SAME TIME that he changes those who belong to him BUT HAVE NOT DIED into spirit bodies. This is what he meant when he said, "I am the resurrection... and the life. He that believes in me AND HAS DIED will be brought back to life... and he that believes in me BUT/AND HAS NOT DIED... will NEVER die." The latter "never" die... because their bodies are changed... in a twinkling. At the same time that those who have died are resurrected. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
As Paul stated: "We the living... who SURVIVE to the presence of the Lord... SHALL IN NO WAY PRECEDE... those who have falled asleep (in death)."
Those person who pass over and receive an education concerning Yahew's sovereign Law and choose to reject his Rulership, they become converts, because they are converted to Satan's way of thinking.
Ummmm... okaaaayyyyy. Again, I have not heard anything even remotely like this from our Lord so, again, I must reserve comment.
They want a world they left behind not a world of righteousness under God's rulership. The converts remain on this planet and spend their time bothering people, playing tricks on them, especially in the ghost hunter TV shows.
Again, okaaay...
I didn't say their life force ceased to exist.
Sorry, I thought that that is what you stated, above - that when one dies, their spirit/life force ceases to exist...
Spirits are like people, some were people. If someone upsets them they will take it personally.
Wait, are you speaking of angels/demons???
Whatever crime was committed, it is bound to have been observed by those on the other side who are well aware of what happened. When a crime has been committed, the angels are deputized to handle this and the criminal is tagged spiritually.
Interesting...
After death, these individuals are not permitted to cross into the higher planes, they are apprehended and taken into custody. There crimes are shown in visual detail to the Creator and witness is given concerning their act. Sentence is passed and the offender is "locked away" in solitary confinement until the day of judgement.
Again, this is something I have not heard from our Lord, and so I must reserve comment.
As before, though, thank you, again, for taking the time to share your understanding(s) with me. I truly appreciate it. Again, I cannot agree with/comment on all that you've shared, but that's okay. Even Paul had to learn as he was LED... with holy spirit... BY our Lord, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah) - Psalm 68:4.
Peace to you, dear one, and may JAH bless!
YOUR servant and fellow slave of Christ,
SA
