Is the Holy Spirit God Himself or a force like in Star Wars?

by I_love_Jeff 224 Replies latest jw friends

truthseeker

Thanks AGuest, peace to you too!
When God's Spirit is spoken of, it can mean two things. One is that of God's Active Force, and the other is the extension by way of proxy, where angels are sent to do God's work.
Consider John 16:12-13 where Jesus is speaking to his disciples: "I still have many things to tell you, but you can't bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak whatever He hears. He will also declare to you what is to come. He will glorify me, because He will take from what is mine and declare it to you."
Who is the "Spirit of Truth," the Comforter that Jesus spoke of? None other than God's Active Force.
When Jesus said, "For He will not speak on His own" he was referring to the fact that the Active Force or Holy Spirit always works in conjunction with God's will, the Active Force being an extension of God's power.
"For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak whatever He hears."
Jesus revealed that his Father's Active Force is always in union with the Father.
Think of the extension of our body- we have legs, arms, fingers etc, but when we think of God, He is a spirit and his Active Force can be in many places at one time.
Consider Matthew 18:20: "For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there among them."

Here, Jesus was speaking of the Active Force that bonds Christ's disciples to him.

John 14:26 "But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit; the Father will send Him in My name; will teach you all things and remind you of everything I have told you."

The Counselor, the Holy Spirit, it is God's Active Force.
Those are simply other names used to describe it.

Hebrews 1:13 "Now to which of the angels has He ever said: Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies Your footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve those who are going to inherit salvation?"
AGuest

This is what I believe about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
May I respond to a couple/few things you posted as to your beliefs, dear TS (again, peace to you!) - thank you!
God, Yahweh, is the supreme creator.
Agreed, except His name is not "Yahweh," dear one. That is a phonetical and spelling error. His name has a MEANING. It is "JaHVeH"... pronounced "Yah Veh"... and means, "JAH, who breaths armies (of spirits) into existence/who causes armies (of spirits) to become." He is the MOST Holy One [of Israel, but that's only because of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob]. I won't go into the discrepancy of the spelling this time.
Aeons ago he created his only begotten Son.
Not quite. Aeons ago (I discern you read apocrypha?)... He "brought forth" His only-begotten Son. That Son was brought forth from the "womb" of God's "free wife"... "Sarah"... the spirit realm. Her "name" is "Jerusalem Above." He is a SON... because he was beget and BORN... versus created (as all other spirit beings were, which is why they aren't sons - they were not BORN of a/the "woman."). He is called "only-begotten" because he is the only son God had BY that Woman, "Sarah" (Jerusalem Above). God had another son, Adham, by means of "Hagar", the physical realm. She is called "the earth."
Now whether that's Son's name was Michael the Archangel, I don't know,
It is not. Michael is one of two angels of the Ark... the "cherubs that were covering." Thus, he is NOT an "archangel" in the sense of a "chief" angel (although he IS a foremost "prince", but that's because he, like others, have been assigned to "principalities"); he is an "arkangel"... in the sense that he was "stationed" ON the "Ark." The other arkangel/cherub... was Belial... the one known you as "Satan" and "Devil."
but we know that the Jews looked forward to the Messiah coming, at least some did.
Yes...
I believe Jesus was born from a virgin, Mary, he gave his life for us, then was reanimated to his old position.
Yes. Well... Jah eShua... the One whom comes in the name of JAH, yes. I won't go into the "Jesus" discussion here, either.
He then became known as Jesus Christ.
Ummmm... no, dear one. He was known as "Jah Eshua, the Chosen One (anointed/christ/mischaJah) prior to returning to his position. His disciples knew him as such. Some even told others, "We have found the messiah (mischaJah)." Gabriel told Mary/Joseph what he was to be named ("Jah eShua", in English "Joshua"... meaning "Jah Saves/Salvation of Jah")... and so his friends, neighbors, and siblings knew this name. They later knew him as the "Chosen One"... which is what anointed ones were called. He was anointed when he came up from the Jordan. John the Baptizer identified him as such and from that time he became the "christ"... or "kristos" in Greek... which means "anointed/chosen".
The Holy Spirit is God's energy, and with it He can make his presence felt anywhere in the universe.
Not quite, dear one. [The Holy Spirit] is Christ. However, "holy spirit" is God's "energy," yes... in that it is HIS life force/source - His blood, breath, and semen (seed). It can take the form of any or all of these, depending on the purpose/need. Since it is GOD's blood/breath/semen, however, and God is a spirit... it is invisible. It can be HEARD, though, and felt (hence, the "wind", "breeze," etc.).
The PROBLEM is that people mix the two up because of the similarity of words: "holy spirit." What they don't understand (and I cannot fathom why, given the plethora of words in English that are similar/spelled the same but mean entirely different things)... is that Christ is a spirit... and he is holy (indeed, the Holy One of Israel)... thus, The Holy Spirit... but that God's life force/source... His ESSENCE... is spirit, because HE is a spirit... and because it is HIS... and HE is holy... that life force/source/essence... HIS "spirit"... is holy, too. Thus, there is holy spirit... and there is The Holy Spirit.
As for the defintion of "spirit" there are so many interpretations.
Yes, there is...
For instance, I can tell someone, I can't be there in person, but I am "with you in spirit" - it's a saying, that I can't be there with you, but know that I wish to be.
Yes...
Then there's spirits, life forms which inhabit the heavens.
Yep!
The Bible talks about a lying spirit and the spirit that "now operates in the sons of disobedience."
Yep!
So it's difficult to know exactly what Paul meant at times when he makes reference to "spirit"
It's actually not difficult at all, in light of the other verses I shared. It's even LESS difficult... if one stops relying on one's OWN understanding and interpretation... as well as that of others (who really don't know any more than one does)... and just go TO that Spirit! What is UP with people not wanting to DO that?? I truly do not know... other than they actually BELIEVE the liars... the ones who've misled them so far... so as to believe them when they say one cannot speak to Christ... or that HE speaks to ones. That is a lie. Which is what we should expect from them (liars), yes?
Dear TS... and to all you who are listening... ask yourselves: it is better to drink "water" DOWN river... once it's passed through the forest, over hill and dale, through creek and pond... into and out of villages and factories... then into the "city"... were it picks up huge amounts of sewage and/or is so "treated" that all beneficial "nutrients" are wiped out?
Or... it is better to drink at the SOURCE, where the water is clean, fresh, without taint or pollution... and hasn't been subject to "treatment"?
If you believe the latter is better, then why not "listen" to Christ's words when HE says:
"All you who are thirsting... COME TO ME... and DRINK!" John 7:37
Why not drink LIVING "water"... instead of the "dead" stuff? Why not drink "water" that has life IN it... that can give YOU life... rather than water that has absolutely NO value at all, indeed may even be POISONED?
Goodness, if someone had shared half of what I am permitted to share here with you with ME... I would have run like a shot out of a gun... to find this "water". Nothing... and no one... would have stopped me or gotten in my way.
What's in YOUR "way"? I can think of nothing... but yourselves.
Again, peace to you, truly... and may any who wish be given ears, so that you, too, hear... when the Spirit (Christ) and the Bride (New Jerusalem) say to YOU:
"Come! Take 'life's water'... FREE!"
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
truthseeker

Hi AGuest,
Thanks for your input. It's getting quite late, but I will do my best. My comments in red.
This is what I believe about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
May I respond to a couple/few things you posted as to your beliefs, dear TS (again, peace to you!) - thank you!
God, Yahweh, is the supreme creator.
Agreed, except His name is not "Yahweh," dear one. That is a phonetical and spelling error. His name has a MEANING. It is "JaHVeH"... pronounced "Yah Veh"... and means, "JAH, who breaths armies (of spirits) into existence/who causes armies (of spirits) to become." He is the MOST Holy One [of Israel, but that's only because of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob]. I won't go into the discrepancy of the spelling this time.
Thanks for the clarification, I did not know this.
Aeons ago he created his only begotten Son.
Not quite. Aeons ago (I discern you read apocrypha?)... He "brought forth" His only-begotten Son. That Son was brought forth from the "womb" of God's "free wife"... "Sarah"... the spirit realm. Her "name" is "Jerusalem Above." He is a SON... because he was beget and BORN... versus created (as all other spirit beings were, which is why they aren't sons - they were not BORN of a/the "woman."). He is called "only-begotten" because he is the only son God had BY that Woman, "Sarah" (Jerusalem Above). God had another son, Adham, by means of "Hagar", the physical realm. She is called "the earth."
Aeons - I meant millions, perhaps billions of years ago, certainly before the time of our physical creation. I am not familiar with what you said about God's free wife - are you referring to Sarah as a spirit being, that is Jerusalem Above? That kind of complicates the issue if you don't mind me saying so.
Now whether that's Son's name was Michael the Archangel, I don't know,
It is not. Michael is one of two angels of the Ark... the "cherubs that were covering." Thus, he is NOT an "archangel" in the sense of a "chief" angel (although he IS a foremost "prince", but that's because he, like others, have been assigned to "principalities"); he is an "arkangel"... in the sense that he was "stationed" ON the "Ark." The other arkangel/cherub... was Belial... the one known you as "Satan" and "Devil."
Thanks for clarification.
but we know that the Jews looked forward to the Messiah coming, at least some did.
Yes...
I believe Jesus was born from a virgin, Mary, he gave his life for us, then was reanimated to his old position.
Yes. Well... Jah eShua... the One whom comes in the name of JAH, yes. I won't go into the "Jesus" discussion here, either.
He then became known as Jesus Christ.
Ummmm... no, dear one. He was known as "Jah Eshua, the Chosen One (anointed/christ/mischaJah) prior to returning to his position. His disciples knew him as such. Some even told others, "We have found the messiah (mischaJah)." Gabriel told Mary/Joseph what he was to be named ("Jah eShua", in English "Joshua"... meaning "Jah Saves/Salvation of Jah")... and so his friends, neighbors, and siblings knew this name. They later knew him as the "Chosen One"... which is what anointed ones were called. He was anointed when he came up from the Jordan. John the Baptizer identified him as such and from that time he became the "christ"... or "kristos" in Greek... which means "anointed/chosen".
The Holy Spirit is God's energy, and with it He can make his presence felt anywhere in the universe.
Not quite, dear one. [The Holy Spirit] is Christ. However, "holy spirit" is God's "energy," yes... in that it is HIS life force/source - His blood, breath, and semen (seed). It can take the form of any or all of these, depending on the purpose/need. Since it is GOD's blood/breath/semen, however, and God is a spirit... it is invisible. It can be HEARD, though, and felt (hence, the "wind", "breeze," etc.).
The PROBLEM is that people mix the two up because of the similarity of words: "holy spirit." What they don't understand (and I cannot fathom why, given the plethora of words in English that are similar/spelled the same but mean entirely different things)... is that Christ is a spirit... and he is holy (indeed, the Holy One of Israel)... thus, The Holy Spirit... but that God's life force/source... His ESSENCE... is spirit, because HE is a spirit... and because it is HIS... and HE is holy... that life force/source/essence... HIS "spirit"... is holy, too. Thus, there is holy spirit... and there is The Holy Spirit.
Agreed here. There are many different ways to understand the vernacular "holy spirit"
As for the defintion of "spirit" there are so many interpretations.
Yes, there is...
For instance, I can tell someone, I can't be there in person, but I am "with you in spirit" - it's a saying, that I can't be there with you, but know that I wish to be.
Yes...
Then there's spirits, life forms which inhabit the heavens.
Yep!
The Bible talks about a lying spirit and the spirit that "now operates in the sons of disobedience."
Yep!
So it's difficult to know exactly what Paul meant at times when he makes reference to "spirit"
It's actually not difficult at all, in light of the other verses I shared. It's even LESS difficult... if one stops relying on one's OWN understanding and interpretation... as well as that of others (who really don't know any more than one does)... and just go TO that Spirit! What is UP with people not wanting to DO that?? I truly do not know... other than they actually BELIEVE the liars... the ones who've misled them so far... so as to believe them when they say one cannot speak to Christ... or that HE speaks to ones. That is a lie. Which is what we should expect from them (liars), yes?
Dear TS... and to all you who are listening... ask yourselves: it is better to drink "water" DOWN river... once it's passed through the forest, over hill and dale, through creek and pond... into and out of villages and factories... then into the "city"... were it picks up huge amounts of sewage and/or is so "treated" that all beneficial "nutrients" are wiped out?
Or... it is better to drink at the SOURCE, where the water is clean, fresh, without taint or pollution... and hasn't been subject to "treatment"?
At the source
If you believe the latter is better, then why not "listen" to Christ's words when HE says:
"All you who are thirsting... COME TO ME... and DRINK!" John 7:37
Why not drink LIVING "water"... instead of the "dead" stuff? Why not drink "water" that has life IN it... that can give YOU life... rather than water that has absolutely NO value at all, indeed may even be POISONED?
Goodness, if someone had shared half of what I am permitted to share here with you with ME... I would have run like a shot out of a gun... to find this "water". Nothing... and no one... would have stopped me or gotten in my way.
What's in YOUR "way"? I can think of nothing... but yourselves.
Again, peace to you, truly... and may any who wish be given ears, so that you, too, hear... when the Spirit (Christ) and the Bride (New Jerusalem) say to YOU:
"Come! Take 'life's water'... FREE!"
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
truthseeker

Everything in God's creation is set up in an orderly fashion, governed by laws.
Each side of the spectrum is governed by the laws of creation, both visible and invisible.
We know that some things which are visible are connected to the invisible? How so? Our Sun emits light that can be seen and light that is unseen. It is a perfect example of the visible and the invisible working in unity.
Our sun's precise distance from the earth reveals intelligent design. If the distance were off by any margin, it would not be beneficial for us living here.
With the spirit world there is much intelligent design and placement of laws that make the two realms work in harmony.
A concrete fact is if you boil water it will steam and evaporate into the air which is a law of the visible realm. It is something you can depend on.
Your very life depends on good health, avoiding accidents and crime by something or someone that could cause your death.
Though you've never experienced death, you know it's real, because most of us have lost friends and loved ones. It's a reality in this world on a daily basis.
Death is a law of the visible creation. As a law of the visible realm, death respects no one and eventually befalls every person of every generation. We take measures to avoid becoming a casualty of that law for as long as is permitted.
In the spirit realm, death is the turning off of energy. It is a reality that can happen on both sides of the spectrum. The same law that applies to those that pass over - rebirth to life - is the same law that gives rebirth on the other side. It is then that you come to understand that Yahweh is the Law-giver, the only source of life. We came into existence through raw energy and without God, no cohesion exists for us to live. Without God's spirit we have no life.
AGuest

When God's Spirit is spoken of, it can mean two things. One is that of God's Active Force, and the other is the extension by way of proxy, where angels are sent to do God's work.
Actually, dear one (again, peace to you!), God does not send angels to do His work, any longer. All authority has been to Christ... in heaven and on earth... and so now HE is the one who sends angels. God gives the task to him... and he may give it to an angel. Hence, the "Revelation."
Consider John 16:12-13 where Jesus is speaking to his disciples: "I still have many things to tell you, but you can't bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak whatever He hears. He will also declare to you what is to come. He will glorify me, because He will take from what is mine and declare it to you."
Unfortunately, you make the same mistake that many others do and that is accept that the translation of the Greek word "autos"... which means "him/her/it"... means "him." It does not and I will show you that, in a sec.
Who is the "Spirit of Truth," the Comforter that Jesus spoke of? None other than God's Active Force.
Well, according to John... it is Christ himself (1 John 2:1, 2):
"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, [Jesus] Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."
The word "Advocate" here, or in Greek "paracletos"... is the very same word used at John 14:16, 26: 15:26; and 16:7. It means:
a) one who pleads another's cause before a judge, a pleader, counsel for defense, legal assistant, an advocate
As John wrote, he... CHRIST... is our "advocate", our "comforter"... the One who pleads/intercedes for us!
When Jesus said, "For He will not speak on His own" he was referring to the fact that the Active Force or Holy Spirit always works in conjunction with God's will, the Active Force being an extension of God's power.
No, dear one. What our Lord said is that IT will not speak of IT'S own. He was referring to the spirit of the truth - HIS spirit... because HE is the truth! (John 14:6). He was saying that that spirit would be sent out... and would not bring a message... an "inspired expression" or "utterance" that was not HIS. Therefore, if someone RECEIVED an inspired (spirit) expression or utterance that was NOT his... it should be REJECTED.
"For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak whatever He hears."
IT would not speak of its own, dear one but would speak what IT "hears." The blood SPEAKS, dear one... and the blood HEARS. OUR blood can hear what the Spirit says, can it not? Is that not how we "bear witness" TO the truth? With OUT spirit? But how can our spirit bear witness... unless it has HEARD? And HOW does it hear? Again... the blood... SPEAKS.
Jesus revealed that his Father's Active Force is always in union with the Father.
No, dear one: HE is always in union with the Father... by MEANS of that force, that blood, that breath... that semen. Holy spirit. HE, the Holy Spirit... is ALWAYS IN UNION WITH THE FATHER... and the Father with HIM... by means of the LIFE/BLOOD/BREATH... and "seed"... they SHARE. That is how WE become "in union" with THEM: through that same LIFE/BLOOD/BREATH... and "semen" (that we are "begat" as sons BY).
Think of the extension of our body- we have legs, arms, fingers etc, but when we think of God, He is a spirit and his Active Force can be in many places at one time.
This is true. His breath, blood, seed, life... all of it CAN be in many places at one time... because IT IS EVERYWHERE.
Consider Matthew 18:20: "For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there among them." Here, Jesus was speaking of the Active Force that bonds Christ's disciples to him.
Yes! And it's not a PERSON... or a spirit BEING that binds us... but BLOOD (think "blood brothers")... BREATH (think CPR)... and semen/seed (think father/sons - a man passes HIS seed to his SONS!).

But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, the Father will send Him in My name, will teach you all things and
remind you of everything I have told you. The Counselor, the Holy Spirit, it is God's Active Force.
Sorry, dear one... but Christ, our Lord, is that Counselor! Not only is he CALLED our Counselor (Isaiah 9:6)) but that same word used at 1 John 2:1, 2... "paracletos"... is used here.
Those are simply other names used to describe it.

Yes, but they are incorrect, dear one... truly!
Hebrews 1:13 "Now to which of the angels has He ever said: Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies Your footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve those who are going to inherit salvation?"
And yes, angels ARE spirits - spirit BEINGS. As is God and Christ... I hope this helps, dear one, and I understand if you are not able to receive it yet, but it is the truth... just as I received it FROM the Truth, Christ. YOUR servant and a slave of Christ, SA
Jeffro

Our sun's precise distance from the earth reveals intelligent design. If the distance were off by any margin, it would not be beneficial for us living here.
The distance between the Earth and the sun does not remain constant. It varies throughout the year by about 5 million kilometres. All of the terms for measuring time for days, years, and seasons, etc, that humans have made up need to be adjusted (e.g. with leap years, leap seconds, and so on), because the actual measurements vary. Additionally, as the sun expands (albeit relatively slowly) the distance decreases. It is delusional to imagine that because the change in distance is very very slow that it will never change.
But not only is the claim false on the face of it, but the argument is fallacious at its core. People are on Earth because it is the kind of environment suitable for sustaining people. It is not the way it is so that it can sustain people.
truthseeker

Just a quick reply,
It seems that most arguments concerning the Trinity and Holy Spirit are due to different translations of the Bible, if only we had one GOOD translation that everyone accepted, half the arguments would probably disappear.
I will be around later to check for new posts.
truthseeker

Jeffro,
So how do you suppose the Earth got its start? I don't believe in evolution.
You said: "But not only is the claim false on the face of it, but the argument is fallacious at its core. People are on Earth because it is the kind of environment suitable for sustaining people. It is not the way it is so that it can sustain people."
I think what you said is fallacious, you are telling me that Earth is not the way it is so it can sustain people. This makes absolutely no sense at all. The most plentiful thing in the visible creation is dust. Not just on the earth, but out in the heavens there are dust clouds in the universe. In the spirit world there is also dust, but its energy vibrates at a higher rate, and that is what separates the two realms. If you think about it, you will understand that all things are made of dust/energy. It is the basic energy that all of creation was formed from. What causes rain droplets to fall to the earth? Dust. But without water, life does not exist. Dust is energy vibrating at different speeds.
Dust is identified in the following scriptures:
Genesis 28:14 Your offspring will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out toward the west, the east, the north, and the south. All the peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring."
Expdus 8:17 "Aaron struck the earth with his staff and the dust became gnats of the third plague."
Exodus 9:9 "The dust of the earth also became festering boils on people and animals throughout the land of Egypt."
At 1 Corinthians 15:47-49, it says " The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven. "
Qcmbr

Sheesh - this is still going on, I fixed it all for you at post 2105.
truthseeker

Qcmbr,
This is a complex discussion, you are welcome to join in if you have anything to add. This topic is not for atheists or those who don't believe in the God of the Bible.

Is the Holy Spirit God Himself or a force like in Star Wars?

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