Is the Holy Spirit God Himself or a force like in Star Wars?

by I_love_Jeff 224 Replies latest jw friends

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    Are you saying that Proverbs 8:23-31 is wrong?

    "The LORD made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago. I was formed before ancient times, from the beginning, before the earth began. I was brought forth when there were no watery depths and no springs filled with water. I was brought forth before the mountains and hills were established, before He made the land, the fields, or the first soil on earth. I was there when He established the heavens, when He laid out the horizon on the surface of the ocean, when He placed the skies above, when the fountains of the ocean gushed forth, when He set a limit for the sea so that the waters would not violate His command, when He laid out the foundations of the earth. I was a skilled craftsman beside Him. I was His delight every day, always rejoicing before Him. I was rejoicing in His inhabited world, delighting in the human race."


    This scripture clearly indicates that Christ acknowledged his maker. What more evidence is there to prove that Jesus (the man) had a prehuman existence. Even if you do not accept that Jesus (the man) and Christ (the Son of God) are the same, this scipture proves that Yahweh created the son...or whom do you suppose this to be?



    You really need to get a better Bible, because it doesn't say the Lord "made" the Word, and if this is all you're hinging your arian views on, you'll lose the argument every time. And being "brought forth" is not the same as being made or created. A more accurate rendering is "From of old I was poured forth," (NAB) "when there was no depth I was brought forth." Try this again: perhaps metaphor will help. Irenaeus (d. 200 A.D.) saw the Son and Spirit’s roles as the two hands of the Father. Just as Paul says at Col 1:17: “He is before all things.” He was not created but rather “set up” or “poured out” (Hebrew Nacak) as one pours out an existing libation, or casts existing metal or anoints an existing king (Strong and Vine’s, 188).

    This scipture proves that Yahweh created the son.

    Not even close, and there is a mountain of evidence that proves you wrong in too many ways to list.

    None of these other Bibles claim the Word was "made."

    New International Version (©1984)
    I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.

    New Living Translation (©2007)
    I was appointed in ages past, at the very first, before the earth began.

    English Standard Version (©2001)
    Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    "From everlasting I was established, From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.

    King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
    I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
    And before the world he was possessed by me, and from the beginning, before he would establish the Earth.

    GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
    I was appointed from everlasting from the first, before the earth began.

    King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
    I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, before the earth was.

    American King James Version
    I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

    American Standard Version
    I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, Before the earth was.

    Bible in Basic English
    From eternal days I was given my place, from the birth of time, before the earth was.

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    I was set up from eternity, and of old before the earth was made.

    Darby Bible Translation
    I was set up from eternity, from the beginning, before the earth was.

    English Revised Version
    I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

    Webster's Bible Translation
    I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

    World English Bible
    I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, before the earth existed.

    Young's Literal Translation
    From the age I was anointed, from the first, From former states of the earth.

    None say that he was "made" or "created."

    I'll say it again. If the Word was before all things, he could not be a thing, and could not be created. Col. 1:16, 17. I'm not the one out on a limb on this. 2 billion Christians and 2,000 years of theology back me up. I'm not the one being radical. You seem like a smart enough fellow, why do you dig your heels in so hard? Are you afraid of church? Are you looking for a reason not to join a religion? I don't understand you arians.


    Christ’s Knowledge: How much did Jesus know? If he was God, why was some of His knowledge limited?

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    Michael was then created and through him he created the invisible spiritual reality first

    You're still a JW. Don't try to fool us, and you better get your act together before it is too late. You're spouting utter nonsense, Devil stuff. Jude 4-9 alone proves you wrong. Verse 4 says that there is only one master and Lord, Jesus Christ, and a few verses later at verse 9 the archangel Michael says to the devil "May the Lord rebuke you," referring to the only master and Lord, Jesus Christ. If Michael was referring to Jesus as another party, he couldn't be that party, obviously.

    And here is a mess of other reasons why you and the JWs are dead wrong, heretics, blasphemers of the worst kind in teaching that the Christ is a created angel. Or that he was just a man while on earth. It is a fearful thing to fall in the hands of the living God.

    Jesus Christ is not Michael the Archangel as the Jehovah's Witnesses teach.[Top]

    Little known to most people is that the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe and teach that Jesus Christ is an angel, Michael the Archangel to be precise (Reasoning, 218; Insight, 108, 156, 393-394). They base this on Daniel 10:13, 12:1; Jude 9; 1 Thessalonians 4:16; Revelation 12:7-12, 19:11-16; and John 12:31 (Reasoning, 218), but none of these verses come remotely close to overturning the context of Bible teaching or convert God the Son into an angel.

    Understandably this little piece of information is downplayed, and for good reason. It’s truly mind-boggling and causes most Christians to pause and take a deep breath. Incredible as it may seem, their preincarnate Jesus was a created angel, then became nothing more than man, and after his resurrection and exaltation returned to being an angel, but a type of super angel, higher and more glorified than all the other angels (Concepts, 65-73). But they are wrong about this as well.

    First, the strongest proof that Jesus was not an angel is found in the pages you just read. For all of the reasons that Jesus was, and is, God, those Scriptural truths automatically exclude Him from being an angel. To reiterate just a few, and without intentionally denigrating any angels who might be watching, the Word was eternal, but angels are created. The Word was before all things, but angels are created. The Word created all things, but that would have included Himself if He was an angel. The list is endless, and at some point, common sense must prevail here.

    Secondly, and to repeat a point made earlier, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and forever” (Hebrews 13:8 NWT). He cannot have been a preexistent angel who changed completely into mere flesh, and then reverted back to heaven as an angel. On the other hand, there is no such radical change in the Trinitarian Christian world where the preexistent Word was God the Son, remained God the Son during His earthly sojourn, and continued as God the Son after the resurrection and ascension. He never stopped being divine.

    Third, when John fell down to worship at the feet of the angel at Revelation 22:8,9, the angel warned him not to and told him to worship God instead. Since the act of worship must only be directed to God, and God at Hebrews 1:6 said with respect to the Son, “Let all the angels worship Him” (NAB), Jesus obviously must be God. There are several other examples of people worshipping Jesus, such as His disciples prior to His ascension (Matthew 28:17 NAB) and when He restored the blind man’s vision (John 9:38 NAB).

    The Greek word used for “worship” is proskuneo, and can mean “to make obeisance, do reverence to” and “is the most frequent word rendered ‘to worship’” (Strong and Vine’s, 214). Since the Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe that Jesus is God, they use “obeisance” or “homage” or “reverence” throughout the Bible when such conduct is directed to Christ. Granted, falling down to one’s knees alone might not equate to worship, and ultimately it is a matter of the heart, but who knows what the heart is feeling? With respect to New Testament worshipers, one can only determine that through circumstantial evidence and the context of the Bible.

    The Jehovah’s Witnesses’ Bible shows no one “worshipping” Christ; they do obeisance or pay homage, but after all that you have read thus far, do you really believe that? Can you honestly say that Jesus Christ was just an angel in light of everything He said about Himself, and other people’s testimony, and the many miracles that He performed? Of course not.

    In the final analysis the Jehovah’s Witnesses have no legitimate scriptural “context” to rely on, no rational basis for their interpretation, and no justification for altering God’s word as they have done here and elsewhere. The angels were told to worship Jesus and they did, along with His disciples. And as for the blind man who regained his sight, he didn’t simply pay his respects, he dropped to the ground and worshipped Jesus as one would anticipate.

    Fourth, verses 5-14 in the first chapter of Hebrews is devoted to clarifying with great specificity that the Son is not an angel, but God. Hebrews 1:1-14 (NAB) states in full:

    CHAPTER 1

    1 In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through prophets; 2 in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,

    3 who is the refulgence of his glory,
    the very imprint of his being,
    and who sustains all things by his mighty word.
    When he had accomplished purification from sins,
    He took his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
    4 far superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

    II THE SON HIGHER THAN THE ANGELS

    Messianic Enthronement 5 For to which of the angels did God ever say:

    “You are my son; this day I have begotten you”?

    Or again:

    “I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to me”?

    6 And again, when he leads the first born into the world, he says:

    “Let all the angels of God worship him,”

    7 Of the angels he says:

    “he makes his angels winds and his ministers a fiery flame”;

    8 but of the Son:

    “Your throne, Oh God, stands forever and ever;
    And a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.

    9 You loved justice and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, anointed you with the oil of gladness above your companions”;

    10 and:

    “At the beginning, O Lord, you established the earth,
    And the heavens are the works of your hands.
    11 They will perish, but you remain;
    and they will all grow old like a garment.
    12 You will roll them up like a cloak,
    and like a garment they will be changed.
    But you are the same, and your years will have no end.

    13 But to which of the angels has he ever said:

    “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool”?

    14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent to serve, for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?

    Much of chapter 1 has been dealt with in previous sections and will only be summarized briefly here. The Christ is God the Son and not an angel for the following reasons, to mention a few:

    a) At Hebrew 1:3 the Son is called “the very imprint of his being.” A literal translation says that Christ is “the express image of His essence” (Green’s Literal Translation). Here, “image” (Greek charaktar) denotes that the Son is “literally equal to God,” of whose essence he is the imprint. It is the fact of complete similarity which this Word stresses” (Strong and Vine’s, 269). Clearly, Christ could not have been created and most certainly was not an angel because either way He would not be literally equal to God, but much less (see section 28).

    b) Hebrews 1:4 states that the Son is “far superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.” This means, among other things, that He is superior in the sense of not being an angel at all because he is in a class of His own (not created) and because at verse 6 we learn that God said, “Let all the angels of God worship him.” As explained above, it is God alone who must be worshipped.

    c) This is supported by the famous verse 8 where God speaking of His Son said, “Your throne, Oh God, stands forever and ever;
    And a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom”
    (see section 34 for a detailed analysis).

    d) Speaking to the Son in the third person (self-communication within the Trinity), verse 10 is an Old Testament passage directed to God Almighty but “redirected to Jesus” (NAB notes 1, 8-12):

    At the beginning, O Lord, you established the earth,
    And the heavens are the works of your hands.
    11 They will perish, but you remain;
    and they will all grow old like a garment.
    12 You will roll them up like a cloak,
    and like a garment they will be changed.
    But you are the same, and your years will have no end.

    e) Verse 13 quotes Psalm 110:1 where Jehovah refers to Jesus as adonay, a title used exclusively for God.

    As strong as this evidence is, the Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t read Hebrews 1:1-14 the same way, but believe that any implication of Christ’s superiority and distinction from the angels means only that he was higher than all the other angels, in a superior position vis-à-vis the angels, though still an angel himself; a super angel. They also teach that many of those speaking in chapter 1 were worshippers of God, not God himself. But the clear language speaks for itself.

    Fifth, the Jehovah’s Witnesses attempt to shore up their reading of these verses by arguing that according to the verse following verse 4, the Son must be an angel because both angels and the Son are called Sons of God. If the Son is completely different from the angels, then angels are not Sons of God.

    A Watchtower textbook, in commenting on the verse following Hebrews 1:4 (wherein the Son is distinguished from angels), says: “But the fact that Jesus Christ is here distinguished from the other angels does not mean that he is not also an angel of God; otherwise, the fact that Jesus Christ is here distinguished as the Son of God would mean that the other angels are not sons of God. Jesus Christ is here designated God’s Son, not in contrast with the angels, but in contrast with the previous prophets, by means of whom God used to speak to men. -- Heb. 1:1-3 (Concepts, 72)

    As a preliminary matter, there is nothing in verses 1-3 that even remotely suggests that the inspired writer of Hebrews in chapter 1 was contrasting God the Son with Old Testament prophets. This is pure fabrication. Read it carefully, and then take a close look at verse 4 which sets the stage for all of the “contrasting” verses that follow:

    1 In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through prophets; 2 in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,

    3 who is the refulgence of his glory,
    the very imprint of his being,
    and who sustains all things by his mighty word.
    When he had accomplished purification from sins,
    He took his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
    4 far superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

    The superior Son is contrasted with inferior angels in verse 4 and all following verses, not prophets.

    Furthermore, their logic is unsustainable. It is illogical to say that because angels are called sons of God and Jesus is the Son of God then Jesus must be an angel. That is what they are arguing, but it ignores verse 5 which makes it very clear that Jesus the Son of God is completely different from angels who are called, figuratively, sons of God.

    5 For to which of the angels did God ever say:
    “ You are my son;

    This question in effect means that angels are not his sons in the same way Christ is His Son. Angels are not “His Son.”

    Additionally, since the nation of Israel is also called God’s “son” at Hosea 11:1, that would make humans angelic beings as well according to the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ line of thought, but they aren’t. Humans (Israel) are lower than angels ( Hebrews 2:7) though called sons of God yet in a completely different sense and class, just like angels are lower than Christ who is superior, who dwells in a non-angelic class of one, as God the Son, who was and is God.

    http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-9.html#46

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    Johnathan,

    I use the Holman Christian Standard Bible

    Proverbs 8:23-31

    Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

    23 I was formed before ancient times,
    from the beginning, before the earth began.

    24 I was brought forth
    when there were no watery depths
    and no springs filled with water.

    25 I was brought forth
    before the mountains and hills were established,

    26 before He made the land, the fields,
    or the first soil on earth
    .

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    You said: "However, if, as the Jehovah's Witnesses falsely teach, the preexistent Christ is a created creature only, then the Holy Spirit must also have been created and accordingly there would have been a time when there was no Holy Spirit and therefore God would have lacked power and authority and would not have been omnipotent, according to their theory. But, since the Holy Spirit is eternal, which the Jehovah's Witnesses must concede, and the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ, and this Spirit is the Holy Spirit, Christ the Word must be eternal."



    I have no idea what you are talking about. JWs never said the Holy Spirit was created, they have always taught it was God's Active Force, something God has as part of his existence. JWs never said there was never a time before the Holy Spirit was created. You are confusing the issue. I see this as a straw man argument.


    You just don't understand the argument. Read it again.

    I never said the JWs teach the Holy Spirit was created. I'm saying: that is the conclusion that must be drawn when they claim the Word was created. I say this because the Bible provides that Christ is the Spirit, and it also says God is the Spirit, and there is only one spirit. But if Christ is the Spirit and as the JWs falsly teach the Word was created, then the Spirit would also have to be created. And that in turn would mean that there was a time when God the Father had no Spirit because that same Spirit (remember, Christ is the Spirit) would have been created. And therefore there would have been a time when God had no Spirit.

    I know it doesn't make sense, but that is what the JWs teach even if they don't recognize the flaw in their theology. Now, if Christ is the Spirit, and there is only one Spirit, and Christ is eternal, then the Spirit is eternal and there are no logical problems, it all fits nicely and works fine.

    Johnathan,

    I use the Holman Christian Standard Bible

    Proverbs 8:23-31

    Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

    23 I was formed before ancient times,
    from the beginning, before the earth began.

    Then why did you say he was made?

    Johnathan,

    Our Father is more female than male in attributes. The term "Father" means a title or form of address that pertains to headship.

    The secret to Father's female side is within the word of Christ. Father is a jealous God and like a human female, Father has the same quality though it reveals her anger.

    All things possessed by all of God's intelligent creations are attributes that have come directly from God's own internal makeup. Jesus Christ who was created by the hand of Father is personified in Her male attribute. Yet Father maintained her female side by giving birth to her only begotten Son, whom we know as the Word.

    Father's wisdom is that of a woman's nature, for Father Herself is nature. All of the things you view in creation are from Father's energy. Christ used the raw energy God gave him with to create all else in existence.

    Within that raw energy are the attributes of nature, the attributes of Father's divine makeup. Even the animal kingdom has Father's attributes and they experience many emotions from jealousy, excitement, happiness and anger. These things all come from the Mother of creation.

    Our reality exists within our Creator who is eternal. Understand that there is no other God like our Creator in existence. Outside of God is where eternity exists.

    You're nuts.

    Factfinder:

    a. To shape or mold (dough, for example) into a particular form. b. To arrange oneself in: Holding out his arms, the cheerleader formed a T. The acrobats formed a pyramid. c. To organize or arrange: The environmentalists formed their own party. d. To fashion, train, or develop by instruction or precept: form a child's mind. 3. To come to have; develop or acquire: form a habit. 4. To constitute or compose a usually basic element, part, or characteristic of. 5. a. To produce (a tense, for example) by inflection: form the pluperfect. b. To make (a word) by derivation or composition. a. To shape or mold something is not to create it. It is already in existence. 4. Constitute or compose is not the same as create. a. The Word is not a "tense." b. The Word is not a "word" either. You need to interpret this, like in very Bible I've found including yours, in the context of the many verses that prove the Word was not created. Even your own Bible disagrees with you because it uses "form." The Word was formed, shaped, molded, poured out, anointed. Not created. If your Bible meant "created" or "made" they would have said that.

    The Trinity boils down to traditions taught by man.

    Matthew 15:5-9 "But you say, 'Whoever tells his father or mother, "Whatever benefit you might have received from me is a gift [committed to the temple]"— he does not have to honor his father.' In this way, you have revoked God's word because of your tradition. Hypocrites! Isaiah prophesied correctly about you when he said: These people honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. They worship Me in vain, teaching as doctrines the commands of men."

    Jesus revealed how hypocritical the traditionalists are.

    They claim to honor Christ and God with their lips, but invalidate the truth of God's Word, so, they are worshiping Satan in reality, because their false worship is in vain.

    If you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins. John 8:24

    More for you. I use Bible Gateway.

    Proverbs 8:23-31

    The Message (MSG)

    22-31 "God sovereignly made me—the first, the basic—
    before he did anything else.
    I was brought into being a long time ago,
    well before Earth got its start.

    Proverbs 8:23-31

    New Century Version (NCV)

    23 I was created in the very beginning,
    even before the world began.
    24 I was born before there were oceans,
    or springs overflowing with water,

    Proverbs 8:23-31

    New International Reader's Version (NIRV)

    23 I was formed at the very beginning.
    I was formed before the world began.
    24 Before there were any oceans, I was born.
    There weren't any springs of water at that time.

    Proverbs 8:23-31

    New International Version (NIV)

    23 I was formed long ages ago,
    at the very beginning, when the world came to be.

    Do you get my point? I am not using the NWT.

    A few obscure Bible sources doesn't make your point at all. The NWT isn't the only Bible who gets it wrong. You have a questionable rendering of one verse in Proverbs, and Christian trinitarians have a mountain of evidence to place your distortion into context. I acknowledge there are non-trinitarians out there. What you should be concerned about is how you misquoted your own bible. I'll go with the overwhelming weight of authority.

    Proof texts that Jesus was, and is, God.

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    I am not a JW anymore, I do not believe most of what they teach. That's not to say that some things taught by them are still with me, I'm still working out the kinks.

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    Definition of "form"

    Don't quibble over words, of course I meant the act of creating, form, make, what difference does it make?

    Proverbs 8:23-31

    Good News Translation (GNT)

    23 I was made in the very beginning,
    at the first, before the world began.
    24 I was born before the oceans,
    when there were no springs of water.

    v.formed, form·ing, forms v.tr. 1. a. To give form to; shape: form clay into figures. b. To develop in the mind; conceive: form an opinion. 2. a. To shape or mold (dough, for example) into a particular form. b. To arrange oneself in: Holding out his arms, the cheerleader formed a T. The acrobats formed a pyramid. c. To organize or arrange: The environmentalists formed their own party. d. To fashion, train, or develop by instruction or precept: form a child's mind. 3. To come to have; develop or acquire: form a habit. 4. To constitute or compose a usually basic element, part, or characteristic of. 5. a. To produce (a tense, for example) by inflection: form the pluperfect. b. To make (a word) by derivation or composition. 6. To put in order; arrange. v.intr. 1. To become formed or shaped. 2. To come into being by taking form; arise. 3. To assume a specified form, shape, or pattern.

    Proverbs 8:23-31

    Common English Bible (CEB)

    23 I was formed in ancient times,
    at the beginning, before the earth was.

    Proverbs 8:23-31

    Contemporary English Version (CEV)

    23 to create the earth.

    At the very first,

    the LORD gave life to [ a ] me. 24 When I was born,

    there were no oceans

    or springs of water.

    Proverbs 8:23-31

    Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

    23 I was formed a long time ago,
    before the world was made.
    24 I was born before there was an ocean,
    before the springs began to flow.

    Proverbs 8:23-31

    GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)


    23 I was appointed from everlasting
    from the first,
    before the earth began.
    24 I was born
    before there were oceans
    before there were springs filled with water.

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    The Trinity boils down to traditions taught by man.

    Matthew 15:5-9 "But you say, 'Whoever tells his father or mother, "Whatever benefit you might have received from me is a gift [committed to the temple]"— he does not have to honor his father.' In this way, you have revoked God's word because of your tradition. Hypocrites! Isaiah prophesied correctly about you when he said: These people honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. They worship Me in vain, teaching as doctrines the commands of men."

    Jesus revealed how hypocritical the traditionalists are.

    They claim to honor Christ and God with their lips, but invalidate the truth of God's Word.

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    More for you. I use Bible Gateway.

    Proverbs 8:23-31

    The Message (MSG)

    22-31 "God sovereignly made me—the first, the basic—
    before he did anything else.

    I was brought into being a long time ago,
    well before Earth got its start.

    Proverbs 8:23-31

    New Century Version (NCV)

    23 I was created in the very beginning,
    even before the world began
    .
    24 I was born before there were oceans,
    or springs overflowing with water,

    Proverbs 8:23-31

    New International Reader's Version (NIRV)

    23 I was formed at the very beginning.
    I was formed before the world began
    .
    24 Before there were any oceans, I was born.
    There weren't any springs of water at that time.

    Proverbs 8:23-31

    New International Version (NIV)

    23 I was formed long ages ago,
    at the very beginning, when the world came to be.

    Do you get my point? I am not using the NWT.

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker
    I'll say it again. If the Word was before all things, he could not be a thing, and could not be created. Col. 1:16, 17. I'm not the one out on a limb on this. 2 billion Christians and 2,000 years of theology back me up. I'm not the one being radical. You seem like a smart enough fellow, why do you dig your heels in so hard? Are you afraid of church? Are you looking for a reason not to join a religion? I don't understand you arians.

    Concerning "all things" I am talking about our physical universe. Christ existed before then.

    I am not afraid of church and I do not go to the Hall anymore. I am not looking for a reason to do either at this point in time but who knows?

    I have to go now but will be back tomorrow to check for replies.

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    Johnathan,

    This is the first time you and I have corresponded on this forum, however, I do recognise the persona from another poster, also known as godrulz.

    I think what did it was the use of the word "Arian" which is a term not commonly used around here.

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/209899/1/Any-fellow-born-again-evangelical-Christians-here

    Those who are true Christians (worship Jesus as YHWH, equal with the Father; either trinitarian or oneness/modalism, but not Arian or polytheism), let us pray and do spiritual warfare for those still deceived. Apologetics, love, prayer, support, encouragement, exposing error, defending truth, etc. can be part of our divine appointment here (as unpopular as we may become). Speak truth in love, listen, respect, glorify God. 2 Timothy 2:24-26; Rom. 1:16; I Jn. 5:11-13

    I submit that you, Godrulz, are posting under a duplicate account named Johnathan Dough.

    Your judgemental attitude contradicts your claim to be "a new creature in Christ"

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