Is the Holy Spirit God Himself or a force like in Star Wars?

by I_love_Jeff 224 Replies latest jw friends

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    You have some nerve saying this, when you gave me a bunch of scriptures on Christ being appointed. Seems it's one rule for you and another for everyone else.

    A few obscure Bible sources doesn't make your point at all. The NWT isn't the only Bible who gets it wrong. You have a questionable rendering of one verse in Proverbs, and Christian trinitarians have a mountain of evidence to place your distortion into context. I acknowledge there are non-trinitarians out there. What you should be concerned about is how you misquoted your own bible. I'll go with the overwhelming weight of authority.

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    Johnathan,

    This is the first time you and I have corresponded on this forum, however, I do recognise the persona from another poster, also known as godrulz.

    I think what did it was the use of the word "Arian" which is a term not commonly used around here.

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/209899/1/Any-fellow-born-again-evangelical-Christians-here

    Those who are true Christians (worship Jesus as YHWH, equal with the Father; either trinitarian or oneness/modalism, but not Arian or polytheism), let us pray and do spiritual warfare for those still deceived. Apologetics, love, prayer, support, encouragement, exposing error, defending truth, etc. can be part of our divine appointment here (as unpopular as we may become). Speak truth in love, listen, respect, glorify God. 2 Timothy 2:24-26; Rom. 1:16; I Jn. 5:11-13

    I submit that you, Godrulz, are posting under a duplicate account named Johnathan Dough. Your judgemental attitude contradicts your claim to be "a new creature in Christ"

    Now you're being childish and petty, although I agree that sometimes I am a bit judgmental, or come across as such. However, I could say the same of you. Criticism and arguing is not per se judgment. It's criticism. It's combat. It's not persecution, either.

    No, I'm not Godrulz, he was much nicer and smarter than me, although I agree with much of what he wrote, as do billions of other Christians. It's called mainstream Christianity. That's probably the similarity you see. If I was Godrulz I wouldn't have joined him in an extensive, long-going argument with WontLeave a while back, who seems to have left the arena after having gotten what he came for. Besides, he's one of those holy-roller charismatics, and I'm not. But if you want to delude yourself into thinking I'm Godrulz, go right ahead. It won't be the first time you've been wrong.

    Just for the record, just as Godrulz said somewhere else, we have an answer for everything you can throw at us. And it's not just any answer, but the correct answer. Just because we don't choose to respond to every hair-brained notion you dream up doesn't mean we can't. We simply choose not to.

    I notice a pattern. People like you can't handle the heat and resort to "running off" the critics, get rid of them, get them banished, libel them by claiming they are someone they are not, you know, devil tactics; all this because your type routinely get their hats handed to them, and deep down inside you know it, and you know you're wrong.

    Arianism is heresy.

    You are referring to yourself in the third person, I have to ask why.

    No I didn't. You're dreaming. Maybe you could provide the quote of this?

    I notice a pattern. People like you can't handle the heat and resort to "running off" the critics, get rid of them, get them banished, libel them by claiming they are someone they are not, you know, devil tactics; all this because your type routinely get their hats handed to them, and deep down inside you know it, and you know you're wrong.

    Johnathan,

    I am not running away nor calling you names.

    You're not reading things carefully, at all. I didn't say you were running away, but people like you "run off" the critics.

    Johnathan,

    I only know you believe in the Trintiy but so I can better understand you, please answer some questions.

    What denomination do you represent?

    Do you believe we pass over at death or do you think life ends at death?

    Do you believe in Hell as a literal place of torment?

    What is your view of the end times prophecies?

    When you have the time.

    And another sneaky tactic you people have is changing the issue when they get suck and paint themselves into a corner and know they can't win an argument no matter how hard they try, just like the JWs. No, I'm not going to answer your questions. I've had my fill of JWs and other nut-jobs who try to create new religions, new faiths, new false denominations, and then try to get others to follow after them. Like AGuest, who has been following along all this time thinking we haven't noticed. I thought there might be hope for you, but I'm now having second thoughts. Besides, if you can't grasp the basics of the Trinity, everything else is doomed to sail over your head.

    And AGuest, don't bother getting involved with this. I read your latest post and I can tell you don't have the slightest clue what has been said or what arguments have been made. Really. That's just crazy talk. Take it down before you really embarrass yourself. You are in way over your head as well. Give us a break for a change. I quit reading your posts a long time ago. Except for this:

    How, in light of Christ's words as recorded at John 8:32, 36 and John 14:6... and Paul's words... do you come up with another, separate entity from Christ... and call it/that/him "the Holy Spirit"?

    Off the rails, once again. You don't understand the Trinity or the indwelling. The Holy Spirit is not regarded by trinitarians as a "separate entity" in trinitarian thought.And I'll be darned if I'm going to rewrite all I wrote in response to Factfinder for your benefit.

    Read this: http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    thank you for what you shared

    You are quite welcome, dear tec (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!)

    as a JW I never realized that people in the OT had the Holy Spirit? I thought Christ had to die first.

    While some did possess a portion of God's holy spirit, dear SOG (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!)... it was a rare instance (for example, when the Most Holy One of Israel wanted to communicate with such a person and/or speak "through" them) and usually reserved for (1) friends of God, like Abraham, (2) prophets, (3) priests, and (4) kings... the latter three being chosen to be such by the Most Holy One of Israel Himself. In order for these to carry out the work/tasks assigned to them by HIM, they had to have a measure of HIS spirit... His blood/breath... IN them. At that time, the Most Holy One of Israel Himself put His spirit in such ones. Do you recall the "spirit" He gave Saul... then the "bad" spirit He replaced that with? Same with David, who had such spirit: it is this spirit, the BLOOD of God... through which God spoke to such ones. It allows the person to be "taken" in the spirit... even transfigured (as Christ was) so that they come to BE in spirit, literally... which is what "inspired" means: "in spirit."

    When Christ died, he was glorified and became "the Holy Spirit"... so that such holy spirit could be given to ANYONE Christ chose... and not just Levitical priests, Judaic kings, or certain ones called to be prophets. It no longer mattered which tribe... indeed, which nation... a person hailed from. They could be "anointed" as kings... and priests... and prophets... and so hear what previously was only made available to "proper" kings, priests, and prophets.

    Dear SA, I wrote a detailed response, and lost connectivity on an unsecured site....all to say...no problemo

    I "hear"... and thank you, dear Vanderhoven... and the greatest of love and peace to you, too, my dear brother in Christ!

    Peace to you all!

    YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,

    SA

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    I notice a pattern. People like you can't handle the heat and resort to "running off" the critics, get rid of them, get them banished, libel them by claiming they are someone they are not, you know, devil tactics; all this because your type routinely get their hats handed to them, and deep down inside you know it, and you know you're wrong.

    Johnathan,

    I am not running away nor calling you names.

    You have not won the argument, nor convinced me that Jesus is Yahweh.

    And yes, you are judgemental, just like a super zealous pioneer who doesn't know when to stop.

    We could go back and forth like this for ages.

    You are referring to yourself in the third person, I have to ask why.

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    Johnathan,

    I only know you believe in the Trinity but so I can better understand you, please answer some questions.

    What denomination do you represent?

    Do you believe we pass over at death or do you think life ends at death?

    Do you believe in Hell as a literal place of torment?

    What is your view of the end times prophecies?

    When you have the time.

  • AGuest
  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    AGuest,

    There's a brief article here which might help with 2 Corinthians 3:17

    http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/verses/2Cor3_17.html

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    I discern a great discussion occurring between a couple few of you dear ones (may you all have peace!) and I don't want to interrupt by joining in. I do, however, want to ask those of you who put complete faith in the accuracy of the Bible... or, even if you believe there are some inaccuracies, consider it "God's Word":

    How do YOU explain Paul's explanation of the Holy Spirit at 2 Corinthians 3:17? How, in light of Christ's words as recorded at John 8:32, 36 and John 14:6... and Paul's words... do you come up with another, separate entity from Christ... and call it/that/him "the Holy Spirit"?

    Virtually every Bible version shows Paul stating, at 2 Corinthians 3:17:

    "Now the Lord is the Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."*

    And virtually every Bible version shows Christ stating, at John 8:32:

    "You will know the truth, and the truthwill set you free."

    Further, virtually every Bible version shows Christ stating, at John 14:6:

    "I the way, the truth, and the life."am

    Finally, virtually every Bible version shows Christ stating, at John 8:36:

    "So if the Son

    sets you free, you will be absolutely free."

    I truly am curious about this... and why/how... if you believe in the Bible as vehemently as you wish others to believe you do... you overlook these verses. Can you explain, please? I would like to know how you find a third person/entity... in light of Christ's own words here, and Paul's statement as to who is the Spirit. Thank you, in advance.

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

    SA

    *Wycliff states:"And the Spirit is the Lord; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    This is what I believe about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

    God, Yahweh, is the supreme creator. Aeons ago he created his only begotten Son. Now whether that's Son's name was Michael the Archangel, I don't know, but we know that the Jews looked forward to the Messiah coming, at least some did. I believe Jesus was born from a virgin, Mary, he gave his life for us, then was reanimated to his old position. He then became known as Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is God's energy, and with it He can make his presence felt anywhere in the universe.

    As for the defintion of "spirit" there are so many interpretations. For instance, I can tell someone, I can't be there in person, but I am "with you in spirit" - it's a saying, that I can't be there with you, but know that I wish to be. Then there's spirits, life forms which inhabit the heavens. The Bible talks about a lying spirit and the spirit that "now operates in the sons of disobedience." So it's difficult to know exactly what Paul meant at times when he makes reference to "spirit"

    AGuest,

    I don't really think of the Holy Spirit as a "third person or entity" - it's God's force.

    I have potential energy to do things, but I don't think of the calories I burn doing something as a person or an entity.

    So for that matter, it's really two individuals, God, the Father, and his Son.

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    There's a brief article here which might help with 2 Corinthians 3:17

    Yes, dear TS (the greatest of love and peace to you!). I am still curious, though, for those who believe Christ is NOT the Holy Spirit... how they reconcile that belief... in light of their professed belief in the Bible... with Paul's words... and Christ's words at John 8:32, 36 and 14:6... all of which is recorded in the Bible. I didn't really anticipate a response from you because I get that YOU understand; however, there are others who may not and I would like to hear from them... so as to help ME understand THEIR thinking... if they will condescend to respond.

    But thank you for the article. My spirit bore witness with the truth of all that I [quickly] read of it

    Again, peace to you!

    YOUR servant and fellow slave of Christ,

    SA

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