Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled 238 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • tec
    tec

    Flamegrilled, welcome to the board.

    I really would like to understand if something else out there fits the bill.

    I'm sure that there are religions that fit your bill. If you research them, I'm sure you'll find them. Some here have given you e x amples, as that goes. But as for the bill of worship; I can only share that if you want to worship in truth, you must do so through Christ. Look to Him. Follow his teachings and commands. Put your faith in Him. He is the only obligation.

    John 6:29 "The work of God is this: believe in the One He has sent."

    "This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to Him."

    Christ taught (through word and deed) us to love one another, to forgive one another (friend and enemy), to show mercy over sacrifice (I believe the NWT says mercy over religion). Now, if you can find a group of people who do all this, and listen to Christ, then by all means, gather with them. (for that matter, gather with anyone you choose... and show them the light within you, if you have such light) But listening to Christ should come first - over any group, or institution, or doctrine, or religion.

    "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teachings. My father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him."

    And if Christ and God come and make their home with you, then you would have their light within you.

    Peace to you,

    Tammy

  • ShadesofGrey
    ShadesofGrey

    When did The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society start preaching that Christ's presence began in 1914? Yknot, can I answer that this was printed as doctrine much, much, later?

    Flamegrilled, was "Christ presence began in 1914" believed and preached in 1925? 1935? 1940?

  • ShadesofGrey
    ShadesofGrey

    1) By this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (John 13:35). Sure I know that not all JWs do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine JWs will NOT kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.

    John the Baptist was approached by some soldiers who wanted to repent and get baptized. John was not a popular guy. He was preparing the way for the Lord. He denounced the insincere ones who came to get baptized and he ended up beheaded for sticking up for high moral values. What did John the Baptist tell the soldiers who came to him to do in order to repent and be baptized?

  • ShadesofGrey
    ShadesofGrey

    I can't seem to edit.

    Flamegrilled, could you give me some examples of how JWs show agape love? That would help me to think of examples that would be acceptable to you.

    I have been to 4 churches less than a dozen times total, so my experience is limited.

    A local church has paid for my neighbor's gas bill in October and her phone bill in December. They also deliver boxes of food to her from the food pantry and there have been people from that church (who are not related to her) who have come to help her clean her house. We had a local church that we visited drop by on Christmas day with a basket of food for us. All that was needed for a Christmas dinner. It was so nice of them, but we didn't need it, so I went directly to said neighbor's house with it. At another church there are volunteers in the church nursery that watched my son for me so that I could see the Christmas pageant. She was disappointed that she had to miss it in order to volunteer that day, but it was a sacrafice that she had decided to make. I have a friend in another state that volunteers in a "closet on wheels" mission to provide clothing for others.

    I know of three Christians that go from door to door in their ministry and two others that volunteer at state fairs in order to preach the gospel, and several others that have ministries on youtube and in blogs. I know a missionary who volunteered to fly out here the week that I DA'd if I wanted him to be here to support the family, and he has already volunteered to fly here at some later date should we need him.

    I have Nigerian friends on facebook because they saw my posts in a Bible page and were moved to friend me as a result. I also have Eastern Orthodox, Catholic, Baptist and Non-denominational friends on Facebook for similar reasons. They saw me post on another forum and wanted to offer their support, even after I said that I have no interest in joining their denominations/churches. They check up on me often, even calling and offering help with my parenting questions.

  • Open mind
    Open mind

    Re: question #1, here's a clip from an article on pacifism:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacifism

    Peace churches

    Peace churches are Christian denominations explicitly advocating pacifism. The term "historic peace churches" refers specifically to three church traditions: the Church of the Brethren, the Mennonites (and some other Anabaptists, such as Amish and Hutterites), and the Quakers (Religious Society of Friends). The historic peace churches have, from their origins as far back as the 16th century, always taken the position that Jesus was himself a pacifist who explicitly taught and practiced pacifism, and that his followers must do likewise. Pacifist churches vary on whether physical force can ever be justified in self-defense or protecting others, as many adhere strictly to nonresistance when confronted by violence. But all agree that violence on behalf of a country or a government is prohibited for Christians.

    BTW, as a few others have already stated, it's VERY NICE to have you here. You don't sound like the typical chip-on-the-shoulder, arrogant JW apologists who often troll these waters.

    All the best to you on your path of discovery.

    om

  • shadow
    shadow

    So you still believe in the Bible and think Jehovah's Witnesses have some of the basics right. But you wonder if there is something better out there that does not have all the crap along with it. I think yours is a quest for the fountain of youth. Any organization with humans involved will inevitably be encumbered by the opinions of those at the top. The governing body would like us to think that Jehovah's Witnesses are in exception to this rule but we really are not. I was baptized about 40 years ago and currently inactive though I still attend meetings. There are a number of things I don't agree with but like you have not found a better option. Ancient Israel and first century Christianity also had plenty of problems but apparently were still acceptable to Jehovah. Perhaps Jehovah's Witnesses are too.

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    Gathering yourselves together is being fulfilled right here in this discussion board. You don't need a physical church any more to associate with others of like mindedness.

    As far as preaching he "good news", yes, that was fulfilled by JWs in 1947 when NH Knorr did a worldwide speaking tour early in the year. Later that year on November 30, 1947 the "end" occurred as prophesied; that is, the "end of the gentile times" when the Partition Agreement went into effect, officially ending Jewish exile. The "end" of Matthew 24 is misinterpreted by JWs and many others to be the "end of the world" that occurs at Armageddon.

    Otherwise, JWs are the true "temple in its right condition" sect from 1886 to 1996. But not after 1996. The parable of the separation of the sheep and goats specirfically applies to the Witness organization. When Christ comes he separates the sheep from the goats in this organization. The sheep are the "little flock" whom he removes and brings to "other sheep not of this fold" where Christ is gathering sheep. Thisis the most important point, therefore, for you to address. That is, that Jesus sends out TEN SLAVES to gather his sheep into different flocks and then those flocks are combined into one. The WTS is one of those ten slaves but which becomes apostatae and an organization mixed with sheep and goats.

    The WTS is like a bus going from New York to Los Angeles. Christ is waiting on the West Coast in San Diego. So its okay to ride that bus west until the San Diego turn-off. If you don't get off and change destinations, then continuing on to L.A. will lead to death. Remember, you have to get off the broad road leading off into destruction and go down the narrow path. What does that say? That says that being on the broad road is okay up to a point. But you must remain awake to see when to get off and go down the narrow path.

    Your problem is that you think once you have foun the true religion, you must stick with it until the end. WRONG. It is only an approved path until the second coming when Christ shows the way of the sheep to another place and then abandons the WTS which has become apostate.

    In other words, the WTS is represented by the 10 virgins. They are all on the same road and their journey is the same. They all nod and all their lamps grow dim. But when the messiah arrives, it is only the 5 wise virgins that get their lamps to burn brightly because they brought the extra oil. They do not share their oil with the foolish virgins, not one drop. This is the point where the sheep are separated from the goats within this organization. This is where the wise virgins leave the broad road and find the narrow path. The foolish virgins, not paying attention, continue down the same broad road that now leads off into destruction.

    Salvation comes through the INDIVIDUAL RELATIONSHIP you have with Jehovah and the Bible and not through an organization. Then once you develop this individual faith and connection, then you "gather together" with others who have a direct relationship with Jehovah with no organizational "mediator" to connect them to God and Christ, which is the error of the WTS.

    Witnesses fall into idolatry by worshipping the angel that gives them spiritual food. Remember, John was tempted to do this by bowing down to the angel who gave him the vision, but he was told, "Be careful! Do not do that! Worship only God." So yes, it is tempting to be impressed by the WTS who promotes itself as the "faithful and discreet slave" and to rejoice in finding the true religion. But that only goes when they actually are still teaching the truth. When you find them not teaching the truth, then they are not impressive. They want to claim they are the FDS and have you accept that whether they qualify or not or are teaching the truth or not. That's where the division between the sheep and goats or wise and foolish virgins occurs. The foolish virgins don't care about truth and embrace the lies the WTS weaves for them in the darkness. They don't really care if the WTS is right or wrong, they just know this is the only true religion around. But others, who embrace what is in the Bible vs. what is in the Watchtower, like the Bereans who check things out, find out the WTS errors and then they "Get out of Babylon the Great, My people" and find out where else Christ is gathering his flock.

    The CRITICAL ERROR is staying with the WTS by default since they see no public organization with these values. But if they read the Bible carefully, they would see that all the other NINE SLAVES where Christ is gathering his sheep are secret societies. The woman is hidden in the "wilderness." The woman represents the primary body of Christ's followers. The "wilderness" represents being hidden and secretive.

    Thus the WTS now fulfills an organization where everybody is always taking in knowledge but never coming to an accurate knowledge of the truth. Thus an organization having a form of Godly devotion but proving false in its power.

    Yes, the WTS served as the "temple in its right condition" after the 2300 evenings and mornings from 1886 to 1996. Since 1996 Jehovah deals directly with spiritual Israel. Further, the GB was identified as the "man of lawlessness" on November 10, 1992 when a letter was sent to them by an inspired anointed brother informing them of this. Now the WTS has been abandoned into spiritual darkness and is now an apostate organization.

    the question you need to ask yourself is: ARE YOU PROMOTING TRUTH? OR YOUR FAVORITE ORGANIZATION?

    We are told to KEEP TESTING to see if we are still in the faith. You're not doing that. The WTS might have been the "true religion" in 1960 or 1980, but is it NOW?

    LS

  • SweetBabyCheezits
    SweetBabyCheezits

    Hello, FG, and welcome!

    You sound open-minded, sincere, intelligent, and intellectually honest.... (If I may quote you:"But I am open to revision on that one if persuasive evidence is presented to the contrary.") It's probably best left for another thread to discuss why you still have faith in the Bible, though starting with that could amount to a real time-saver so I might take the liberty here.

    You're clearly open to revision of your views - albeit within the realm of Christian doctrine - if presented withpersuasive evidence. But I suspect you, like many of us, didn't have the same stringent requirements for evidence when you were first persuaded to put faith in El Bibel. This presents a cart-before-the-horse scenario... when a person latches onto a belief as a matter of faith and only years later, after developing logic and reasoning skills, demands evidence to sway him awayfrom his faith-based beliefs.

    "The great trouble with religion — any religion — is that a religionist, having accepted certain propositions by faith, cannot thereafter judge those propositions by evidence." - Robert Heinlein

    (To be fair, Heinlein could've added "and remain a religionist" at the end since some *do* judge by evidence.)

    You also mentioned that there's "no point preaching anything to an atheist unless you can first convince them that it's reasonable to believe in a God." This is true. And why shouldn't that be the status quo? That is the default state, the zero position - a lack of belief in any particular god or gods. Sometimes this is mistaken for agnosticism, which deals with knowledge: that we cannot know one way or another if god exists.

    IMO, a person should only be persuaded (by evidence, of course) to move from that default position once he is an adult. Otherwise, what better time to 'convince an atheist that it's reasonable to believe in a God' - and then a specific description of god - than when he happens to be a gullible child, no less likely to question the existence of Santa Claus?

    That's all just my opinion, though, and like yours it is subject to revision.

  • SweetBabyCheezits
    SweetBabyCheezits

    Well, crap. My formatting got screwed up when I posted and now I get an error when I try to edit it. Looks like I really wanted to emphasize the last few paragraphs.

  • wasblind
    wasblind

    FG says: "yknot - the way I see that is that it IS good news about the Christ, but with additional details about how everything becomes fulfilled through him. I don't see it as being "another sort of good news".

    Good mornin' FG,

    hope your feelin' better than I am today, Ole Wuz is a little stiff in the joints :))

    In 1st corinthians 15: 1-26 paul states what the good news is , in Galatians

    1: 1-12 Paul gives a warning about anything different than what he stated in 1st Corinthians 15, even if

    it comes from an angel

    The WTS openly offers somethin' differed from that, here's an example on page 208 reasoning book.

    If the householder ask : " Christians are supposed to be witnesses for Jesus not Jehovah "

    the publisher may reply : " But here is something that may be a new thought to you. of whom was Jesus the " the faithful witness"

    the WTS openly suggest the publisher to offer a" new thought"

    That " New thought " allows JW's to over what Jesus commanded in Acts 1:8

    Jesus did exactly as his father told him to do, but the Jehovah's witnesses are not doin' exactly what Jesus has told them

    to do in Acts 1:8, so there fore they are not imitating the Christ

    Jehovah's witnesses claim this in the reasoning book

    " Jehovahs witnesses believe that the entire bible is the inspired word of God, and instead of adhering to a creed based on human tradition, they hold to the bible as the standard for all there beliefs."___________ reasoning book page 199

    All through the book of Acts the apostles did exactly as the bible stated what Jesus commanded in Acts 1:8

    they did not offer any "new thought" no additional details needed. why?

    Because

    Acts 19 : 17 states : " ..... the name of the Lord Jesus went on being magnified

    Acts 19 : 20 states : " Thus in a mighty way the word of Jehovah kept growing."

    .

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