Hello there Sweets, :))
Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible
by flamegrilled 238 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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SweetBabyCheezits
Hey, gurrrl, how you doin???
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ShadesofGrey
Salvation comes from being marked as belonging to Christ. How are we marked?
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13
So we need to answer two questions then, what is the gospel of salvation and do Jehovah's Witnesses have that right?
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ShadesofGrey
set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.and he has identified us as his own by placing the Holy Spirit in our hearts as the first installment that guarantees everything he has promised us.
2 Corinthians 1:22
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ShadesofGrey
Yes, JWs make a big thing of the earthly paradise, but I think that's just because it's a distinction from what many other religions believe so it tends to come to the fore in discussion. I don't see why location is very important personally.
Actually, JWs beliefs about the paradise are not unique. We first learned this when one of my daughters ballet friends had us to dinner. They believe that when people die now their spirit goes to heaven. Acts 7:59 and that believers who are alive when Christ returns are taken to heaven for a time in order to be protected from Armageddon. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then they are returned to earth, as the Lord is also, and heaven and earth are one. Revelation 21
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flamegrilled
Thanks for all the follow up. That's a lot of stuff to resopnd to and I won't have time to deal with it all. So I'll at least try to respond on some and hopefully come back to others later.
exwhyzee:
Do you think that it is pleasing to God that 2012 years after his Son's death, people are still reading the Bible, calling themselves Christians and looking to him as a means for salvation? Since we can't be perfect isnt it enough that people are trying?
Yes,I do agree that God would not be displeased with those things. But I also think that if people called themselves Christians then God would expect them to accept the responsibilities which come with that. If they were reading the bible and at the same time claimed that there were no such responsibilities then that would likely be displeasing. If would be a bit like me saying I call myself your "friend" so that should be good enough. If you needed me to help with something I'd just shrug and say I don't understand why you're not just happy with my "friendship". Anyone who reads Jesus' words in the gospels and the rest of the NT, but conludes that we don't need to do anything except believe must be reading very selectively IMO.
Do you think Jesus might have meant his followers or Christians would have love among themselves associated with a single group or toward all those who claimed to be Christian no matter what group they are in ?
Very possibly the latter. But it could be understood either way so I keep an open mind about that.
Do you think it is loving when JW's leave literature at peoples houses that bash and condemn them to destruction for being part of a non JW Congregation of Christians they hold dear ?
One would have to be quite selective with the contents of the material to read it that way (notwithstanding perhaps the campaign we had a couple fo years ago on "False religions end is near"). But if someone truly believes that another person is not on the narrow road leading to life then I think it would be wrong not to say it clearly. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying they are necessaily correct, but here we are talking about whether they are "loving" not "correct". If the motivation is honestly right then yes I think a strong warning can be an expression of love.
Do all the details of the doctrine really matter all that much after all these years especially when there are so many ways for it to be interpreted , so long as they have the big chunks in place ? God the creator, Jesus sacrafice, obey Bible teachings as best as you are able to understand them.
I agree. It's the minute details that have often got us into trouble. We would do better to refocus on the big picture.
If the details are critically improtant, what about all the doctrinal changes that were made by the Watchtower Society after claiming they had The Truth and all others were condemned by God?
I understand what you're saying but it's difficult to identify specifics where WTS has said that other religions are condemned by God because of believing X and then for WTS to subsequently change to believing X. The idea of true worship / false worship has been presented as a more general concept than that. For example take the 1975 debacle. I don't think anyone would have said at the time that others are condemned for not believing the end was coming in 1975. Or that others are condemned for doubting the resurrection of the Sodomites. Its more general than that - the claim is based upon doctrines in part (hellfire, soul, etc), but also Christian morals and way of life, preaching etc. So as far as condemnation is concerned (if it's even ever been expressed that way) then I don't think it's been in relation to the smaller details. Nevertheless you are quite right that at any point in time too much has been claimed as regards the possession of complete truth. I agree.
Do you think it is possible that God looks at the individuals in each group of Christians and approves of them by their personal behavior rather than because of the group they are associated with ?
Yes. Absolutely.
Do you think there is ever a justification for Military action ? In Biblical times, God often had reasons for sending his people to war. He doesn't deal with mankind directly anymore but in your mind, could there ever be a reason for a Christian to take up arms that God might approve of ? I'm thinking of what the world would be like right now had Hitler (for one) not been stopped.
No I personally don't. When Jesus said "my kingdom is no part of the world" I do believe that means we should not make judgements that one political system is better than another and then take it into our own hands to support it by killing others as a result of that judgement. I believe that more recent conflicts which have ostensibly been promoted as a fight for right, have proven that often people are deceived into fighting for a country's greed (or perceived need). I think it's safer to go with God on this one and wait for him to clear the despots out of the way. I understand that sounds lame to anyone who doesn't believe that God is going to act, but I do have confidence that he will. In the meantime what would have happened if noone had stood up to Hitler? Who knows? Sometimes a moral decision has to be made based on God's word even if the consequences don't appear as though they will be the best. That also applies to the small things in life as well as the big ones.
Why do you suppose JW's spend so much time pointing out the faults and wrongdoings of other religious groups, the people of the world and other non Witness institutions and barely acknowledge, discuss or explain their own failings, rather than simply sticking to the business of teaching interested ones"their" understanding of the Bible and leave it at that ?
I don't know that it's necessarily wrong to point out faults of other religious groups. Jesus strongly exposed the way that the religious leaders of his day had moved far away from the word of God. I don't think he did that out of spite for those men, but rather to warn others not to follow them or go down the same route. If you had a teenage child who was going to hang-out with a group that would lead him into some seriously bad practices, would you stop at just trying to instill good morals in him/her, or would you also bluntly point out the problems with the behaviour of that group and the likely consequences? Again I'm not trying to get into the rights and wrongs of any particular group myself, simply pointing out that the motivation is not wrong in principle.
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flamegrilled
Tammy - Not sure exactly what you mean by "He is the only obligation". You've then gone on to quote scriptures that talk about "listening to him" and "obeying his commandments". That is fundamentally the point of this thread. Jesus commandments includes love, preach, meet as per original scriptures quoted in my first post. I agree that Christ is the way, but there are further implications to acknowledging that. I agree that WTS may not be correct in every way, but that is why I am asking for someone to point out another way that encompasses all those obligations that come with being Christian.
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flamegrilled
ShadesofGrey - I hear what you say. It's often a matter of perspective. I don't doubt people have good Chrsitian friends outside of JWs. I also know that a lot of good practical help is given inside the JW congregations. That's subjective so I won't go listing them here as if to score points since I'm not claiming that individual JWs are the most holy people by virtue of their membership.
But it is also a question of what is taught. Not taking up arms and killing a fellow Christian is black and white to me. I had the discussion with mormons at the door and they were quite happy to put country over their faith if it came to it, and admitted they would kill mormons in another country. Well immediately I can see that they do not measure up to a true Christian standard according to Christ's words. To me that is not subjective. Any religion that says its okay to kill others (even fellow brothers in Christ) is just a non-starter from my point of view. And that point of view is only based on Jesus' unambiguous command to love one another to the point of death. If a believing Christian wants to correct me on that I'll happily listen to the argument.
Again this is not a defense of JW faith in it's entirity, but simply to say that for me any alternative would have to share that same tenet.
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flamegrilled
open mind - thanks. I appreciate we are not the only ones who don't fight. It's just one piece of the puzzle is all. If another church did not fight, but also made no effort to make disciples then I would still have a problem with that. So as per my first post for me it's a matter of identifying worship that encompasses all of the requirements not just some of them. Hope I explained that okay.
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flamegrilled
shadow - I agree with much of what you say. It's a constant weighing process to see at what point (if any) the flaws get in the way of progressing in a relationship with God.